?

penny wrote:Do consider that we all suggest the g-torp is not only maneuverable, but loiterable.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that is true, it is the Silver Bullets that were specifically designed to loiter. The G-torpedoes do not have the ability to trickle charge the plasma capacitors, so they have only what power remains when they reach the attack point.

Jonathan_S wrote:But even that remaining power might given them a few days of loiter time -- depending on how far out you launched them (and thus how long they'd had to spend in transit).

Sure, a few days is basically nothing compared to the nearly months that the Silver Bullets were designed for; but it might be enough to be a nasty surprise in the right circumstances.

To loiter, the G-torpedo would have to come to a stop. Did you factor in that power consumption? Also the use of an engine to create that deceleration might show up on a sensor.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Do consider that we all suggest the g-torp is not only maneuverable, but loiterable.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that is true, it is the Silver Bullets that were specifically designed to loiter. The G-torpedoes do not have the ability to trickle charge the plasma capacitors, so they have only what power remains when they reach the attack point.

Jonathan_S wrote:But even that remaining power might given them a few days of loiter time -- depending on how far out you launched them (and thus how long they'd had to spend in transit).

Sure, a few days is basically nothing compared to the nearly months that the Silver Bullets were designed for; but it might be enough to be a nasty surprise in the right circumstances.

To loiter, the G-torpedo would have to come to a stop. Did you factor in that power consumption? Also the use of an engine to create that deceleration might show up on a sensor.

I may be missing another memo here. The spider-drive itself would be the engine that stops the g-torp, no? And we are told that only starting the drive is detectable (and that is probably within a certain distance, certainly with something as small as a g-torp), but it hasn't been specifically stated that a spider-drive is detectable simply because it is maneuvering. Other than perhaps exposing its proposed less stealthy side. And I do not think it is a given that a spider-drive has to be shut down while stopped, unless it would be idling for weeks.

And of course the fuel needed to loiter would be figured in the equation. As Jonathan implied, and I concur, it would depend on the distance launched and the intended time of attack. It should not be too much to expect the natural fuel supply of a g-torp to be able to deliver several days of loiter time, especially for an attack launched from an LD that has somewhat infiltrated the system.

.

The US did overfly Cuba (and at least one pilot was killed when plane shot down) in context of Cuban Missile Crisis.
Francis Gary Powers did survive the shoot-down of his U-2, did not take the suicide option and was eventually returned to the US (I didn't go back and see what may have been public terms of that return). He retuned to civilian life but has since died. That was not the only U-2 flight over the Soviet Union. The SR 71 series did a lot of flying over places the were not supposed to be. There is film identified as showing Soviet fighters trying -and failing- to get anywhere close to the altitude of an SR 71, and apparently nothing in the Soviet weapons systems could deal with (or catch up with even being fired from in front of it but lower altitude) and shoot one down.

When were were treated to Albert Deteweiler going to it "closed doors announcement "if it's activation, several members of the Renaissance Faction were identified as having governments lead by members of the Alignment. At the very least, there were people placed highly in each system who were members of the Alignment and would guide them to deeper involvement. The RF was intended to act as a -lets say non-aligned- entity that would eventually announce it's formation to the universe at large as a mutual defense and allied set of systems to counter the problems which had accumulated in the SL and were threatening other systems with involving them in the SL crap.

When ultimately discovered, Darius is probably going to have a "Final Flourish" moment when those dastardly Alignment infiltrators - right as the GA shows up- and vaporize all that incriminating building capacity, records and secret installations along with ever so many people to show they were just another world that was used in secret by the Alignment and now discard after they torched the place.

Just exactly how is the Maxwell Association supposed to document a very long time using a wormhole that they and or Mannheim found (or both independently and then had to work out the cooperation of this massive potential asset in secret enough to plant and grow a secrete colony when keeping the other claimants of the system in the dark about the wormhole?
Darius sounds like a massively industrialized system with gigantic population of "genetically modified" population being- apparently- produced in Manpower sized decanting operations. And it has no known traffic with anywhere else and what the heck are all those shipyards- not to mention spaceborn fabrication- building it's is not exporting anything.
We have to wonder at all the hundreds of frighters of equipment and transferred inhabitants came from -sort of like Galton by the way. Odd things like that good sized Mannheim SDF "only" having basically SLN type tech and ships when they are participating in the obfuscation of a functioning wormhole leading to a state-of-the-art and beyond SLN technology. Why not build even just their "knockoff" types of warships there. Operational security is a good catch phrase. Why would nobody on Mannheim or Maxell have ships going there...well, military sealed orders to ships going on "exercises" to keep the other claimants of the Felix system from discovering somebody is at least using the "empty" system for priactice.
Very odd..

penny wrote:I may be missing another memo here. The spider-drive itself would be the engine that stops the g-torp, no? And we are told that only starting the drive is detectable (and that is probably within a certain distance, certainly with something as small as a g-torp), but it hasn't been specifically stated that a spider-drive is detectable simply because it is maneuvering. Other than perhaps exposing its proposed less stealthy side. And I do not think it is a given that a spider-drive has to be shut down while stopped, unless it would be idling for weeks.

And of course the fuel needed to loiter would be figured in the equation. As Jonathan implied, and I concur, it would depend on the distance launched and the intended time of attack. It should not be too much to expect the natural fuel supply of a g-torp to be able to deliver several days of loiter time, especially for an attack launched from an LD that has somewhat infiltrated the system.

Where were you planning to loiter? If near the target (waiting for other things to get in place), then you have to worry about light speed detection: thermal imaging, occlusion detection and so on. If far away, then better planning could eliminate that step. Remember that you need to power a three-second graser which uses so much power that it completely destroys itself and its vehicle. What you must absolutely avoid is having insufficient power to accomplish that last step. No one is going to build in a loiter phase, if they do not need to do so. It increases size and complexity, when size is already a problem; so yes, it is too much to expect. The Silver Bullets were substantially bigger, even with the trickle charger.

PS: No LD was involved. Also it gives the whole game away if the only way this could be done was to use the spider drive.

Brigade XO wrote:<snip>
Just exactly how is the Maxwell Association supposed to document a very long time using a wormhole that they and or Mannheim found (or both independently and then had to work out the cooperation of this massive potential asset in secret enough to plant and grow a secrete colony when keeping the other claimants of the system in the dark about the wormhole?
Darius sounds like a massively industrialized system with gigantic population of "genetically modified" population being- apparently- produced in Manpower sized decanting operations. And it has no known traffic with anywhere else and what the heck are all those shipyards- not to mention spaceborn fabrication- building it's is not exporting anything.
We have to wonder at all the hundreds of frighters of equipment and transferred inhabitants came from -sort of like Galton by the way. Odd things like that good sized Mannheim SDF "only" having basically SLN type tech and ships when they are participating in the obfuscation of a functioning wormhole leading to a state-of-the-art and beyond SLN technology. Why not build even just their "knockoff" types of warships there. Operational security is a good catch phrase. Why would nobody on Mannheim or Maxell have ships going there...well, military sealed orders to ships going on "exercises" to keep the other claimants of the Felix system from discovering somebody is at least using the "empty" system for priactice.
Very odd..

They are not - this scenario is supposing that a GA scout finds them via hyper - and that's how they would claim they were colonized. And that wormhole? Oh - We just found it a month or so ago and don't know where it leads yet....

If the scout is coming through the wormhole from Felix - it's dead meat. Even a light set of defenses will destroy any scouting effort short of a multi-squadron simultaneous transit by classic SDs - and any moderate defenses will chew that up. Besides, if a GA scout is coming through the Wormhole from Felix, the gig is up - The GA already absolutely determined that the path to the Malign is through Felix, battered their way through the Mannerheim forces stationed there, gotten control of the Felix system, determined that the MAlign is the opposite end of the Wormhole, scanned the wormhole for transit, and sent a Scout through.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Do consider that we all suggest the g-torp is not only maneuverable, but loiterable.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that is true, it is the Silver Bullets that were specifically designed to loiter. The G-torpedoes do not have the ability to trickle charge the plasma capacitors, so they have only what power remains when they reach the attack point.

Jonathan_S wrote:But even that remaining power might given them a few days of loiter time -- depending on how far out you launched them (and thus how long they'd had to spend in transit).

Sure, a few days is basically nothing compared to the nearly months that the Silver Bullets were designed for; but it might be enough to be a nasty surprise in the right circumstances.

To loiter, the G-torpedo would have to come to a stop. Did you factor in that power consumption? Also the use of an engine to create that deceleration might show up on a sensor.

Well it's got a nice stealthy spider drive -- so yes, I considered that it'd have to use that to slow down in order to loiter. But it's very unlikely to be seen while doing so.

Whether it ultimately has the energy budget would depend on how high it's parasitic usage is when the engine isn't online.

As far as we know, restart at will (instead of being a one-shot like a missile's impeller), that lets it coast in from extreme range and still perform terminal maneuvering.

So, if nothing else, it should theoretically have the power budge to slow down if it just accelerates for half as long and extends its ballistic coast phase -- that is, unless simply coasting along consumed so much power that it won't have enough left for that deceleration maneuver.


You might have to sneak in closer if you want to launch a g-torp on a loitering attack profile (to keep the overall mission duration within its power budget - despite lower peak velocity) but the system should have some limited capability for this.



Now, against many targets there wouldn't be much point to loitering. If you've gotten the weapon within range you might as well use it. And if you're coordinating with a known event then just launch so you reach the target at the right time.
But having some flexibility in arrival time could be useful if you were trying to coordinate the attack with some other activity that might get delayed by a short time. Or it might be useful to leave a couple of g-torps lingering near the terminus of a wormhole your enemy is known to transit to attack should any of their ships show up. Or hang out inside the hyper limit on a least time approach to one of their planets hoping a juicy target will walk into their sights. In those later two cases there wouldn't be much there to detect a loitering weapon - because the thing that shows up is the thing they'd attack.

I doubt loitering is a primary attack mode -- but it should be possible to utilize the g-torp's energy budget for limited loitering if a tactical situation seems to call for it. I'd hope their software was flexible enough to allow that -- because the default hardware should be.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I may be missing another memo here. The spider-drive itself would be the engine that stops the g-torp, no? And we are told that only starting the drive is detectable (and that is probably within a certain distance, certainly with something as small as a g-torp), but it hasn't been specifically stated that a spider-drive is detectable simply because it is maneuvering. Other than perhaps exposing its proposed less stealthy side. And I do not think it is a given that a spider-drive has to be shut down while stopped, unless it would be idling for weeks.

And of course the fuel needed to loiter would be figured in the equation. As Jonathan implied, and I concur, it would depend on the distance launched and the intended time of attack. It should not be too much to expect the natural fuel supply of a g-torp to be able to deliver several days of loiter time, especially for an attack launched from an LD that has somewhat infiltrated the system.

Where were you planning to loiter? If near the target (waiting for other things to get in place), then you have to worry about light speed detection: thermal imaging, occlusion detection and so on. If far away, then better planning could eliminate that step. Remember that you need to power a three-second graser which uses so much power that it completely destroys itself and its vehicle. What you must absolutely avoid is having insufficient power to accomplish that last step. No one is going to build in a loiter phase, if they do not need to do so. It increases size and complexity, when size is already a problem; so yes, it is too much to expect. The Silver Bullets were substantially bigger, even with the trickle charger.

PS: No LD was involved. Also it gives the whole game away if the only way this could be done was to use the spider drive.

I don't think you are thinking it through. You have a point that the g-torps must have enough power remaining for the 3-second hell storm when it engages. But I think it has enough reserve than you think, certainly for an ordinary attack. Think about it. It has to. Any missile must not only have enough fuel remaining to execute its attack run, but it must have enough fuel to dodge obstacles as well (like Foraker's triple ripple). Do consider that a g-torp’s main duty as most of us suggest is to be launched from the edge of the system. In that tactical scenario, a lot of objects – insignificant warships, school buses, yachts, dispatch boats, news crews, and even entire fleets – can find itself in a g-torp's way. A g-torp may have to vector way off of its intended flight profile just as GR platforms must frequently do when they are spying. If a g-torp's energy budget is “just enough” the normalities of life caused by Murphy would make it useless.

But we cannot compare the loiter time of a Silver Bullet which I assume is measured in weeks to that of a G-torp which, again, several days or even a day is not too much to ask. And again, if launched from much closer in from LDs then Bob is still your Uncle. But if that power budget is increased ... tum te tum tum tum.

In summary, without the ability to loiter then there also isn't much ability to maneuver, and falling short on either could expose the entire operation. Oops!

penny wrote:Do consider that we all suggest the g-torp is not only maneuverable, but loiterable.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that is true, it is the Silver Bullets that were specifically designed to loiter. The G-torpedoes do not have the ability to trickle charge the plasma capacitors, so they have only what power remains when they reach the attack point.

Jonathan_S wrote:But even that remaining power might given them a few days of loiter time -- depending on how far out you launched them (and thus how long they'd had to spend in transit).

Sure, a few days is basically nothing compared to the nearly months that the Silver Bullets were designed for; but it might be enough to be a nasty surprise in the right circumstances.

tlb wrote:To loiter, the G-torpedo would have to come to a stop. Did you factor in that power consumption? Also the use of an engine to create that deceleration might show up on a sensor.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well it's got a nice stealthy spider drive -- so yes, I considered that it'd have to use that to slow down in order to loiter. But it's very unlikely to be seen while doing so.

Whether it ultimately has the energy budget would depend on how high it's parasitic usage is when the engine isn't online.

As far as we know, restart at will (instead of being a one-shot like a missile's impeller), that lets it coast in from extreme range and still perform terminal maneuvering.

So, if nothing else, it should theoretically have the power budge to slow down if it just accelerates for half as long and extends its ballistic coast phase -- that is, unless simply coasting along consumed so much power that it won't have enough left for that deceleration maneuver.


You might have to sneak in closer if you want to launch a g-torp on a loitering attack profile (to keep the overall mission duration within its power budget - despite lower peak velocity) but the system should have some limited capability for this.

Now, against many targets there wouldn't be much point to loitering. If you've gotten the weapon within range you might as well use it. And if you're coordinating with a known event then just launch so you reach the target at the right time.
But having some flexibility in arrival time could be useful if you were trying to coordinate the attack with some other activity that might get delayed by a short time. Or it might be useful to leave a couple of g-torps lingering near the terminus of a wormhole your enemy is known to transit to attack should any of their ships show up. Or hang out inside the hyper limit on a least time approach to one of their planets hoping a juicy target will walk into their sights. In those later two cases there wouldn't be much there to detect a loitering weapon - because the thing that shows up is the thing they'd attack.

I doubt loitering is a primary attack mode -- but it should be possible to utilize the g-torp's energy budget for limited loitering if a tactical situation seems to call for it. I'd hope their software was flexible enough to allow that -- because the default hardware should be.

tlb wrote:Where were you planning to loiter? If near the target (waiting for other things to get in place), then you have to worry about light speed detection: thermal imaging, occlusion detection and so on. If far away, then better planning could eliminate that step. Remember that you need to power a three-second graser which uses so much power that it completely destroys itself and its vehicle. What you must absolutely avoid is having insufficient power to accomplish that last step. No one is going to build in a loiter phase, if they do not need to do so. It increases size and complexity, when size is already a problem; so yes, it is too much to expect. The Silver Bullets were substantially bigger, even with the trickle charger.

You missed a reply to Penny, where he also thought that the energy budget might allow loitering. The ability to loiter might be a nice feature, but it adds size and complexity to a missile that is already over size. Because it is most important that firing the graser completely destroy the weapon and the missile, I will doubt that loitering was ever part of the weapons requirement for the G-torpedo.

penny wrote:I may be missing another memo here. The spider-drive itself would be the engine that stops the g-torp, no? And we are told that only starting the drive is detectable (and that is probably within a certain distance, certainly with something as small as a g-torp), but it hasn't been specifically stated that a spider-drive is detectable simply because it is maneuvering. Other than perhaps exposing its proposed less stealthy side. And I do not think it is a given that a spider-drive has to be shut down while stopped, unless it would be idling for weeks.

And of course the fuel needed to loiter would be figured in the equation. As Jonathan implied, and I concur, it would depend on the distance launched and the intended time of attack. It should not be too much to expect the natural fuel supply of a g-torp to be able to deliver several days of loiter time, especially for an attack launched from an LD that has somewhat infiltrated the system.

tlb wrote:Where were you planning to loiter? If near the target (waiting for other things to get in place), then you have to worry about light speed detection: thermal imaging, occlusion detection and so on. If far away, then better planning could eliminate that step. Remember that you need to power a three-second graser which uses so much power that it completely destroys itself and its vehicle. What you must absolutely avoid is having insufficient power to accomplish that last step. No one is going to build in a loiter phase, if they do not need to do so. It increases size and complexity, when size is already a problem; so yes, it is too much to expect. The Silver Bullets were substantially bigger, even with the trickle charger.

PS: No LD was involved. Also it gives the whole game away if the only way this could be done was to use the spider drive.

penny wrote:I don't think you are thinking it through. You have a point that the g-torps must have enough power remaining for the 3-second hell storm when it engages. But I think it has enough reserve than you think, certainly for an ordinary attack. Think about it. It has to. Any missile must not only have enough fuel remaining to execute its attack run, but it must have enough fuel to dodge obstacles as well (like Foraker's triple ripple). Do consider that a g-torp’s main duty as most of us suggest is to be launched from the edge of the system. In that tactical scenario, a lot of objects – insignificant warships, school buses, yachts, dispatch boats, news crews, and even entire fleets – can find itself in a g-torp's way. A g-torp may have to vector way off of its intended flight profile just as GR platforms must frequently do when they are spying. If a g-torp's energy budget is “just enough” the normalities of life caused by Murphy would make it useless.

But we cannot compare the loiter time of a Silver Bullet which I assume is measured in weeks to that of a G-torp which, again, several days or even a day is not too much to ask. And again, if launched from much closer in from LDs then Bob is still your Uncle. But if that power budget is increased ... tum te tum tum tum.

In summary, without the ability to loiter then there also isn't much ability to maneuver, and falling short on either could expose the entire operation. Oops!

I think that that you are adding a wish list, instead of keeping it simple. I am not saying the energy budget is only "just enough"; I am saying that it is absolutely necessary to have an over abundance of energy at the end, rather than too little. I think it is you that wants to only have "just enough" power remaining to take the shot. It does not take anywhere near the same amount of energy to maneuver, as it does to come to a complete stop and then perhaps accelerate again.

PS: Wasn't it a G-torpedo that ran into the wedge of a tug, since the ship yards were much further out?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I may be missing another memo here. The spider-drive itself would be the engine that stops the g-torp, no? And we are told that only starting the drive is detectable (and that is probably within a certain distance, certainly with something as small as a g-torp), but it hasn't been specifically stated that a spider-drive is detectable simply because it is maneuvering. Other than perhaps exposing its proposed less stealthy side. And I do not think it is a given that a spider-drive has to be shut down while stopped, unless it would be idling for weeks.

And of course the fuel needed to loiter would be figured in the equation. As Jonathan implied, and I concur, it would depend on the distance launched and the intended time of attack. It should not be too much to expect the natural fuel supply of a g-torp to be able to deliver several days of loiter time, especially for an attack launched from an LD that has somewhat infiltrated the system.

tlb wrote:Where were you planning to loiter? If near the target (waiting for other things to get in place), then you have to worry about light speed detection: thermal imaging, occlusion detection and so on. If far away, then better planning could eliminate that step. Remember that you need to power a three-second graser which uses so much power that it completely destroys itself and its vehicle. What you must absolutely avoid is having insufficient power to accomplish that last step. No one is going to build in a loiter phase, if they do not need to do so. It increases size and complexity, when size is already a problem; so yes, it is too much to expect. The Silver Bullets were substantially bigger, even with the trickle charger.

PS: No LD was involved. Also it gives the whole game away if the only way this could be done was to use the spider drive.

penny wrote:I don't think you are thinking it through. You have a point that the g-torps must have enough power remaining for the 3-second hell storm when it engages. But I think it has enough reserve than you think, certainly for an ordinary attack. Think about it. It has to. Any missile must not only have enough fuel remaining to execute its attack run, but it must have enough fuel to dodge obstacles as well (like Foraker's triple ripple). Do consider that a g-torp’s main duty as most of us suggest is to be launched from the edge of the system. In that tactical scenario, a lot of objects – insignificant warships, school buses, yachts, dispatch boats, news crews, and even entire fleets – can find itself in a g-torp's way. A g-torp may have to vector way off of its intended flight profile just as GR platforms must frequently do when they are spying. If a g-torp's energy budget is “just enough” the normalities of life caused by Murphy would make it useless.

But we cannot compare the loiter time of a Silver Bullet which I assume is measured in weeks to that of a G-torp which, again, several days or even a day is not too much to ask. And again, if launched from much closer in from LDs then Bob is still your Uncle. But if that power budget is increased ... tum te tum tum tum.

In summary, without the ability to loiter then there also isn't much ability to maneuver, and falling short on either could expose the entire operation. Oops!

I think that that you are adding a wish list, instead of keeping it simple. I am not saying the energy budget is only "just enough"; I am saying that it is absolutely necessary to have an over abundance of energy at the end, rather than too little. I think it is you that wants to only have "just enough" power remaining to take the shot. It does not take anywhere near the same amount of energy to maneuver, as it does to come to a complete stop and then perhaps accelerate again.

PS: Wasn't it a G-torpedo that ran into the wedge of a tug, since the ship yards were much further out?

Again, I think you are missing a lot of variables. I won't specifically argue whether a g-torp was originally designed with loitering in mind, because I think the ability would be a by-product of ensuring sufficient maneuverability to be useful, which would render the issue moot. In the early days of missiles what was more important than having enough power for an attack run was being able to reach the target in the first place. Which gave us varying stages of SDMs, MDMs, and my own proposed NIMMs. (Near infinite mass missiles ).

Remember my constant preaching that the strategy and tactics that must be considered are completely different across the board for MA weapons? Then consider the life of a weapon as slow as a g-torp launched from the edge of the system. If the MA can take a snap shot of the system at the time of launch, I'd bet that snap shot will look nothing like what it did at the moment of launch. So a g-torp must have the inherent ability to perform extreme maneuvers to prevent collision or detection.

Consider our smart phones. We have battery saver mode, extreme battery saver made, the ability to kill background apps, lowering the display screen, etc. I would imagine a g-torp has an onboard computer that can make decisions on the spot to do the same. We do not know all there is to know about a spider-drive. A spider-drive may have a low power mode while coasting. The low power mode could not only save energy but reduce waste heat.

At any rate, the ability to loiter would be a by-product of increased maneuverability. Loitering saves energy and again reduces waste heat. You don't think the MA would look into loiter time for a stealthy missile? I think they'd be irresponsible not to.

At any rate, exactly why would the ability to loiter increase the size of the missile? I also fail to see why decelerating would require significant amounts of power. And again, loitering may have its sweet spots. Better to loiter in suburbia than in the middle of the ghetto. Or vice versa. LOL

Also, after loitering, getting a g-torp back up to speed shouldn't take that much energy, IMO. It is already a slow missile. Almost as slow as an LD. I imagine a g-torp reaches its max acceleration very early after launch, so a restart after loitering shouldn't require any significant power, nor would there be a rush to get back up to speed.

Isn't there a thread currently trending about the various power modes of wedge based missiles? Why would the same notion not exist for MA missiles?


PS

Why did the G-torp run into the wedge of a tug? Where did that happen? Was it intentional suicide by the g-torp because of its drained power reserves, to prevent detection or due to a malfunction?