?

Theemile wrote:Even if Darius is found, it possibly has another layer of security - legality. All that is needed is Darius need to claim that it is a secret colony of.... another member of the Renaissance Factor. That's right, they are a secret colony of a separate completely legal star nation (say, the Maxwell Association) that has nothing to do with those big bad nasty Mesans. And when someone looks, sure enough, there exists at the Maxwell Association a paper trail of the Secret colony going back 200 years along with plenty of Government officials which will back it up.

Nothing to see here - everything is totally normal - move along....

Could it be another RF member like that, not Mannerheim, with a proper paper trail?

My initial reaction was no. Mannerheim has been "protecting" the Felix Junction for some 15 T-years now and too many people in their Navy who are not MAlign agents know about it. So if the Maxwell Association had known about the Junction for an extra 150 T-years, they'd either have opposed Mannerheim protecting it, or they'd have got into an RF-like arrangement much earlier than last year.

But maybe there's a way around that: Maxwell was indeed colonising and was protecting the Junction when Mannerheim stumbled upon it. At that point, they decided to share the expense: given that Mannerheim had a bigger Navy, they'd take over the protection but gain access to the colony. At the same time, they'd start the discussions to found the RF.

The question is whether Maxwell or any member of the RF would have had the expertise and resources to start another colony. We know from TEiF that Mannerheim was barely a single government 200 T-years ago, and it's the terminus of the Warner-Mannerheim Warp Bridge, so presumably the most developed system in its region (we know they had an "outsized Navy"). It doesn't look like they'd have had the resources to start a daughter colony.

Though nothing stops another Manticore-like well-funded colony having been established in the region. That requires though that such did exist prior to the MAlign machinations.

Jonathan_S wrote:That's certainly not the way I'd understood rogue waves -- though I admit we've very little text ev.

However the quote I'd included specifically says ships stay slow so they can dodge if the the Shear appears -- to me that is saying they're avoiding it; not rigging sails to gently enter it.

I think that word supports my belief that ships, even with sails, can't survive a rogue wave.

Those are not mutually exclusive. It will depend on the size of the shear that appears: if it's too small, then dodging it and continuing on the same baseline course under impellers may be a better use of time than going through it.

Theemile wrote:Even if Darius is found, it possibly has another layer of security - legality. All that is needed is Darius need to claim that it is a secret colony of.... another member of the Renaissance Factor. That's right, they are a secret colony of a separate completely legal star nation (say, the Maxwell Association) that has nothing to do with those big bad nasty Mesans. And when someone looks, sure enough, there exists at the Maxwell Association a paper trail of the Secret colony going back 200 years along with plenty of Government officials which will back it up.

Nothing to see here - everything is totally normal - move along....

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Could it be another RF member like that, not Mannerheim, with a proper paper trail?

My initial reaction was no. Mannerheim has been "protecting" the Felix Junction for some 15 T-years now and too many people in their Navy who are not MAlign agents know about it. So if the Maxwell Association had known about the Junction for an extra 150 T-years, they'd either have opposed Mannerheim protecting it, or they'd have got into an RF-like arrangement much earlier than last year.

But maybe there's a way around that: Maxwell was indeed colonising and was protecting the Junction when Mannerheim stumbled upon it. At that point, they decided to share the expense: given that Mannerheim had a bigger Navy, they'd take over the protection but gain access to the colony. At the same time, they'd start the discussions to found the RF.

The question is whether Maxwell or any member of the RF would have had the expertise and resources to start another colony. We know from TEiF that Mannerheim was barely a single government 200 T-years ago, and it's the terminus of the Warner-Mannerheim Warp Bridge, so presumably the most developed system in its region (we know they had an "outsized Navy"). It doesn't look like they'd have had the resources to start a daughter colony.

Though nothing stops another Manticore-like well-funded colony having been established in the region. That requires though that such did exist prior to the MAlign machinations.

It is clear from TEiF that the cover story will be that they were like the Mesan Engagement, but more paranoid because they knew of the Mesan Alignment and its evil plans. Frightened by the establishment of Galton, they took advantage of the discovery of a wormhole to a good world and they went there to hide with the protection of their friends at Mannerheim.

tlb wrote:It is clear from TEiF that the cover story will be that they were like the Mesan Engagement, but more paranoid because they knew of the Mesan Alignment and its evil plans. Frightened by the establishment of Galton, they took advantage of the discovery of a wormhole to a good world and they went there to hide with the protection of their friends at Mannerheim.

But how are they going to explain the yards building spider-drive ships with triple skegs?

tlb wrote:It is clear from TEiF that the cover story will be that they were like the Mesan Engagement, but more paranoid because they knew of the Mesan Alignment and its evil plans. Frightened by the establishment of Galton, they took advantage of the discovery of a wormhole to a good world and they went there to hide with the protection of their friends at Mannerheim.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But how are they going to explain the yards building spider-drive ships with triple skegs?

According to the documentation found at Galton, every bad thing (such as Oyster Bay) was done without the aid of the spider drive; so the only discrepancy is Herlander's knowledge of the spider. They can say it was a slip up in their secrecy that made him think that Galton had it. Actually they were using the spider drive ships to spy on Galton.

As long as there are no more bad things happening and they hide the offensive spider ships; then there is no way to conclusively prove they are not what they say.

Personally I think that they need to create a Darius 2.0 as a new hiding spot and move the offensive stuff there.

tlb wrote:According to the documentation found at Galton, every bad thing (such as Oyster Bay) was done without the aid of the spider drive; so the only discrepancy is Herlander's knowledge of the spider. They can say it was a slip up in their secrecy that made him think that Galton had it. Actually they were using the spider drive ships to spy on Galton.

That's pending confirmation. Manticore and Grayson have very good readings on what attacked them and what they failed to detect. They will be able to compare that to what they find at Galton.

The Hasta III won't cut it, because the GA also has very good documentation of how the SLN and TIY developed it, with a timeline showing it after the Yawata Strike. So those couldn't have been used for it, and by necessity would have had to be worse than what the GA saw and detected during the Beowulf Strike / Operation Fabius.

As long as there are no more bad things happening and they hide the offensive spider ships; then there is no way to conclusively prove they are not what they say.

Right, the main spider yards don't have to be orbiting Darius, though we know there were a few there because we had Albrecht Detweiler's view of them. But those may be prototype yards and were shut down soon after, or moved to other, possibly civilian purpose.

Personally I think that they need to create a Darius 2.0 as a new hiding spot and move the offensive stuff there.

And use the streak drive to site it very far away.

tlb wrote:According to the documentation found at Galton, every bad thing (such as Oyster Bay) was done without the aid of the spider drive; so the only discrepancy is Herlander's knowledge of the spider. They can say it was a slip up in their secrecy that made him think that Galton had it. Actually they were using the spider drive ships to spy on Galton.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's pending confirmation. Manticore and Grayson have very good readings on what attacked them and what they failed to detect. They will be able to compare that to what they find at Galton.

The Hasta III won't cut it, because the GA also has very good documentation of how the SLN and TIY developed it, with a timeline showing it after the Yawata Strike. So those couldn't have been used for it, and by necessity would have had to be worse than what the GA saw and detected during the Beowulf Strike / Operation Fabius.

My understanding is that Galton developed the Hasta and the Cataphract first and passed on to TIY what to do (both developments are just sticking one missile onto the nose of another). Pretty sure that it was the Malign agent that introduced the Hasta to the SLN. Which would mean that whatever Galton "used" at Oyster Bay could have been better than what the SLN had. Specifically, everyone still alive at Galton are convinced that their forces made the strike.

tlb wrote:My understanding is that Galton developed the Hasta and the Cataphract first and passed on to TIY what to do. Pretty sure that it was the Malign agent that introduced the Hasta to the SLN. Which would mean that whatever Galton "used" at Oyster Bay could have been better than what the SLN had. Specifically, everyone still alive at Galton are convinced that their forces made the strike.

No, TEiF is quite clear that the Hasta was developed by SLN first. They were making a point on how they had the full documentation on it from SLN and Ganymede but TIY was extremely uncooperative about the Cataphract documentation.

To End in Fire, page 780 (~91%) wrote:"We've discussed all of the planning we can and can't do," she continued. "Personally, I think Admiral Saleta and Admiral Trenis are correct when they suggest it was actually the Alignment, fronting through Technodyne, who provided the SLN with the Cataphract. We can't prove that, especially since Yildun is one of the systems which has declined to ratify the new Constitution, which means even our friends in the League aren't in a position to lean on Technodyne'shome offices for details of the original design's R and D. But the fact that they refuse to give us that information strikes us as pretty strong indicator that it didn't come out of their own shop... and that they think we'd be a just bit unhappy with them if we found out who handed it to them."

The assembled flag officers nodded in sober understanding. None of the data Honor had brought back from Ganymede indicated the original source of the Cataphract design, and the Technodyne headquarters on Mesa had suffered a mysterious fire before Michelle Henke could seize their records. There was a clear paper trail indicating how the Cataphract had morphed into the Hasta—all the work on that had been done at Ganymede—but no trace of where the initial Cataphract design had come from.

So they know how the Hasta was developed and when. There's no way the Hasta could have been used for the Yawata Strike.

Edit: I should be more precise and say that the Hasta was developed by TIY indeed, but it was developed for the SLN, with the SLN, and under the SLN's eyes.

tlb wrote:My understanding is that Galton developed the Hasta and the Cataphract first and passed on to TIY what to do. Pretty sure that it was the Malign agent that introduced the Hasta to the SLN. Which would mean that whatever Galton "used" at Oyster Bay could have been better than what the SLN had. Specifically, everyone still alive at Galton are convinced that their forces made the strike.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, TEiF is quite clear that the Hasta was developed by SLN first. They were making a point on how they had the full documentation on it from SLN and Ganymede but TIY was extremely uncooperative about the Cataphract documentation.

To End in Fire, page 780 (~91%) wrote:"We've discussed all of the planning we can and can't do," she continued. "Personally, I think Admiral Saleta and Admiral Trenis are correct when they suggest it was actually the Alignment, fronting through Technodyne, who provided the SLN with the Cataphract. We can't prove that, especially since Yildun is one of the systems which has declined to ratify the new Constitution, which means even our friends in the League aren't in a position to lean on Technodyne'shome offices for details of the original design's R and D. But the fact that they refuse to give us that information strikes us as pretty strong indicator that it didn't come out of their own shop... and that they think we'd be a just bit unhappy with them if we found out who handed it to them."

The assembled flag officers nodded in sober understanding. None of the data Honor had brought back from Ganymede indicated the original source of the Cataphract design, and the Technodyne headquarters on Mesa had suffered a mysterious fire before Michelle Henke could seize their records. There was a clear paper trail indicating how the Cataphract had morphed into the Hasta—all the work on that had been done at Ganymede—but no trace of where the initial Cataphract design had come from.

So they know how the Hasta was developed and when. There's no way the Hasta could have been used for the Yawata Strike.

Edit: I should be more precise and say that the Hasta was developed by TIY indeed, but it was developed for the SLN, with the SLN, and under the SLN's eyes.

Both are just a matter of sticking a missile with a warhead onto the nose of another missile, so there is little developmental difference between them. Your text even says that the Hasta evolved from the Cataphract. The Hasta uses the body of recon drone, which meant that they were hidden in the flight of actual recon drones fired at Beowulf. They were NOT part of the Oyster Bay attack. From Mission of Honor:

Chapter 29 wrote: Daniel Detweiler's researchers hadn't yet figured out how to fit multiple full-size, sustainable drives into a single missile of manageable dimensions. They had, however, realized what the RMN must have done, and they were working industriously to duplicate the Manticoran advantage. In the meantime, they'd come up with Cataphract, a variant of their own based on taking the standard missile bodies for the SLN's new-generation anti-ship missiles and adding what amounted to a separate final stage carrying a standard laser head and a counter-missile 's drive system. For Oyster Bay, they'd brought out the longest-ranged, heaviest version of their new weapon, fitted the birds into out-sized pods, then launched them behind other, specialized pods which carried nothing but low-powered particle screens and the power supplies to maintain them for the ballistic run in-system to their targets. The missile-laden pods had followed in the zone swept by the shield-equipped platforms; now they completed their own system checks and began to launch.

You are technically correct that the Hasta was created on Ganymede based on information from the Malign, but incorrect in saying that it was used in Oyster Bay.

tlb wrote:You are technically correct that the Hasta was created on Ganymede based on information from the Malign, but incorrect in saying that it was used in Oyster Bay.

That's my point: they couldn't have been. So the Galton documentation saying that they had supplied the equipment that attacked Manticore and Grayson cannot ring true, because in its own defence, Galton only had the Hasta III or a modest evolution thereof. For that fake documentation to sound true, Galton would need to have something superior to what the Hasta III ended up being, before the Hasta I began development.

Ditto for the warheads. We don't know whether the Hastas used in the defence of Galton were 3-second grasers, but it strikes to me as something the MAN would have kept from the Galton navy. So if they weren't and the RMN and GSN have very detailed records of how long the grasers fired for, where are the 3-second grasers?

If RFC decides to, he can explain all of this away, but it's pushing disbelief. It can't be just missing information, because the GA has captured the system and a lot of databases. Even my quote above says that missing information caused the GA analysts to be highly suspicious of TIY, so this alone shouldn't explain unless the Zilwicki, Cachat, and Ruth are suddenly struck with a case of Terminal Stupidity. It would have to be convincing information that is found and corroborated by people, which somehow explains why the level of stealth seen in the Strike wasn't usable for defence, why the delivery vehicles were discarded in favour of the Hasta design, why the graser in those weapons wasn't as powerful, etc.

Plus the nanites. Plus the people who left Mesa but never made it to Galton. And I'm assuming the streak drive was legitimately developed in Galton and thus its entire development files are going to be found.

No, my opinion remains that the GA knows it hasn't found the true core of the Onion.