?

penny wrote:... in the HV I fully expect that turbulence is far more dangerous than it is on a planet. Not the same thing at all. But what is the same is the necessity of being forewarned. In the middle of a grav wave, if turbulence hits I do not know if there is any kind of warning. But one thing is for certain, the sails must be adjusted in some fashion. I would hazard a guess that trimming the sails is computer controlled. I wouldn't expect manual adjustment to be able to react fast enough. Therefore, I will still suggest that the sails are a set and forget matter, besides adjusting for speed and computer controlled trimming of the sails due to turbulence. There might be minor adjustments of the sails throughout the trip even in a normal grav wave; which I believe would also be accomplished under computer control.

I am positing an insanely powerful rogue grav wave that also appears to be very very random. But what is more dangerous is its inherent turbulence that is so severe that it is always fatal. It has the sort of turbulence that normal computers cannot adjust for because perhaps the sails cannot be trimmed in the fashion that need be.

Text implies that there are rogue waves that have caused destruction and as a result, certain waves are avoided. The MA loves a challenge. If all mere mortals are avoiding a grav wave, and the MA is not, then there might be areas of space that are inaccessible to mere mortals. Especially if these roguish rogue grav waves exist in an area of space that is a veritable freak rogue grav-wave storm.

That should have read 'I do not know how much of a warning there is of turbulence. Sensors in hyper are already limited, no? How well can sensors work in a grav wave, let alone in the midst of an even more powerful grav wave? So, realistically how much forewarning can there be?

Also, other than the author, who is to say that there isn't areas of hyperspace where rogue grav waves appear atop of rogue grav waves? Akin to a freak storm hitting a freak storm or several tornadoes touching down simultaneously in one city, etc. And who is to say that there are not areas in space where very frequent and random rogue grav waves appear simultaneously in each band? And if there needs to be enough forewarning of impending rogue grav waves and impending turbulence, what happens if an additional rogue grav wave or turbulence hits in the midst of a rogue grav wave where sensors should be even nore limited?

Again, and in summary, there may be areas in space where computers cannot presently trim for the rogue grav waves that occur because of their severity, randomness, energy level, low warning and possibly because the sails currently cannot be trimmed in the manner that need be; because of programming or the just plain impossibility of the sails to currently be reconfigured in the appropriate fashion required for mere navies other than those that have made unprecedented and unforeseen needed adjustments.

Tlb suggested that he does not think the author will share anything new about grav waves or rogue grav waves. I will hesitate to board that bus because sooner or later the author will have to give some explanation as to why Darius has not been found. Did David ever give a reason why Galton was not found without the Alignment's own error in Operational Security? At any rate, inaccessible regions of space might solve that problem as well.

penny wrote:That should have read 'I do not know how much of a warning there is of turbulence. Sensors in hyper are already limited, no? How well can sensors work in a grav wave, let alone in the midst of an even more powerful grav wave? So, realistically how much forewarning can there be?

Also, other than the author, who is to say that there isn't areas of hyperspace where rogue grav waves appear atop of rogue grav waves? Akin to a freak storm hitting a freak storm or several tornadoes touching down simultaneously in one city, etc. And who is to say that there are not areas in space where very frequent and random rogue grav waves appear simultaneously in each band? And if there needs to be enough forewarning of impending rogue grav waves and impending turbulence, what happens if an additional rogue grav wave or turbulence hits in the midst of a rogue grav wave where sensors should be even nore limited?

Again, and in summary, there may be areas in space where computers cannot presently trim for the rogue grav waves that occur because of their severity, randomness, energy level, low warning and possibly because the sails currently cannot be trimmed in the manner that need be; because of programming or the just plain impossibility of the sails to currently be reconfigured in the appropriate fashion required for mere navies other than those that have made unprecedented and unforeseen needed adjustments.

Tlb suggested that he does not think the author will share anything new about grav waves or rogue grav waves. I will hesitate to board that bus because sooner or later the author will have to give some explanation as to why Darius has not been found. Did David ever give a reason why Galton was not found without the Alignment's own error in Operational Security? At any rate, inaccessible regions of space might solve that problem as well.

"how much forewarning can there be?" Apparently enough.

Yes sensor ranges are limited in hyper (compared to normal space); though grav sensors seem to be the longest ranged ones there. But ships zip down grav waves at 0.6c without any apparent concern - their Warshaski arrays feeding information on upcoming turbulence in (it seems) plenty of time for the sails to adjust.

But since no know ship can survive in a rogue wave we've no idea if sensor conditions in there are worse.

We do know that a rogue wave cannot occur within a normal wave -- that's one of the reasons given in the text for why captains like to sail down waves. I'd tend to suspect that that would also mean a rogue wave couldn't occur within another rogue wave -- but that's certainly not something we can know for sure.

But we don't need rogue waves to explain why Galton and Darius haven't been found. The sheer enormity of space is more than sufficient reason (especially since, until very recently, nobody was actually looking for them) -- and Occam's razor says that simpler explanation is more likely the correct one.

penny wrote:Text implies that there are rogue waves that have caused destruction and as a result, certain waves are avoided. The MA loves a challenge. If all mere mortals are avoiding a grav wave, and the MA is not, then there might be areas of space that are inaccessible to mere mortals. Especially if these roguish rogue grav waves exist in an area of space that is a veritable freak rogue grav-wave storm.

They love a challenge, but are somewhat conservative in risks if they can't mitigate or address them.

As I said before, a grav wave wouldn't help hiding anything unless it's:
a) an especially big rogue wave
b) an exceedingly powerful rogue wave
c) a wave that takes up all of the regular bands (maybe not alpha) but is accessible in iota or kappa

Otherwise, it's not a hiding place. Points (b) and (c) are what you're making and they're already very unlikely. Point (a) is what I made before, that if it isn't blocking off a huge volume in n-space, a nearby neighbour would see your civilisation, in time. We know Galton was indeed very far: about 200 light-years from Mannerheim, which is itself already outside the League. That puts Galton very at the Fringe, at something like 700 light-years from Sol. Darius is a further wormhole from the Mannerheim region so it could be even further out.

What's more, the streak drive wasn't a revolutionary innovation: just brute force. The MAlign couldn't count on it remaining unknown for long, so the hidey-hole could be found easily once the rest of the Universe accessed the kappa and iota bands. They may have hoped to keep the drive a secret a bit longer, but they wouldn't make plans on it remaining a secret.

No, most likely, the streak drive would have enabled them to range much further out for Plan C or D.

penny wrote:Tlb suggested that he does not think the author will share anything new about grav waves or rogue grav waves. I will hesitate to board that bus because sooner or later the author will have to give some explanation as to why Darius has not been found. Did David ever give a reason why Galton was not found without the Alignment's own error in Operational Security? At any rate, inaccessible regions of space might solve that problem as well.

Jonathan_S wrote:But we don't need rogue waves to explain why Galton and Darius haven't been found. The sheer enormity of space is more than sufficient reason (especially since, until very recently, nobody was actually looking for them) -- and Occam's razor says that simpler explanation is more likely the correct one.

The author gave a full explanation of how Galton was found: simple triangulation.

As for Darius, the explanation is an unknown wormhole (to the GA), that is being guarded by Mannerheim.

I do NOT understand why you think that there is something magical about rogue waves in a Rift. A Rift is a region of space without any standing gravity wave (so bounded by standing waves) and a rogue wave is gravity "flare" thrown off by one of those standing waves in the Rift. The Selker Rift is completely mapped, so if someone had the physical tools to forecast and utilize the Selker Shear, then they would be able to move about the Rift at full particle shield speed, rather than the cautious speed of everyone else. This would give them a tactical advantage, but would not take them anywhere unknown.

There is no reason to think any other Rift will be different. So they would only find unknown places, if they were searching a previously unknown Rift. Note that no one is ever concerned about rogue waves when they are in a gravity wave.

tlb wrote:The author gave a full explanation of how Galton was found: simple triangulation.

As for Darius, the explanation is an unknown wormhole (to the GA), that is being guarded by Mannerheim.

I do NOT understand why you think that there is something magical about rogue waves in a Rift. A Rift is a region of space without any standing gravity wave (so bounded by standing waves) and a rogue wave is gravity "flare" thrown off by one of those standing waves in the Rift. The Selker Rift is completely mapped, so if someone had the physical tools to forecast and utilize the Selker Shear, then they would be able to move about the Rift at full particle shield speed, rather than the cautious speed of everyone else. This would give them a tactical advantage, but would not take them anywhere unknown.

There is no reason to think any other Rift will be different. So they would only find unknown places, if they were searching a previously unknown Rift. Note that no one is ever concerned about rogue waves when they are in a gravity wave.

Yeah, should have been clearer in my answer because obviously Galton was eventually found. But it wasn't found sooner because people weren't looking for it until recently and space is far too vast to be likely to stumble across a hidden colony by accident.

Darius being behind a wormhole makes it harder to find; as even if you trace its traffic to Felix you're not going to scout through a (you have to assume) defended wormhole. So you again have to find the way to it through hyper - but you don't have shipping info through hyper to triangulate with. (And, while going through hyper will take longer than going through the wormhole, if you knew where it was there's no reason to believe you couldn't outfit a fleet to go there)

(Of course if you do trace the traffic to Felix then you can blockade that junction, and if Darius wants to influence events they'll then have to send ships through hyper and give you a change to find that traffic and narrow down your search area)


As for rifts, I'd quibble slightly that most probably aren't fully bounded, on all 6 sides, by grav waves. So much of hyper is rift that most of that rift area probably connects -- and the bits that get unique names are just the portions of rift that major shipping routes can't avoid.

Jonathan_S wrote:As for rifts, I'd quibble slightly that most probably aren't fully bounded, on all 6 sides, by grav waves. So much of hyper is rift that most of that rift area probably connects -- and the bits that get unique names are just the portions of rift that major shipping routes can't avoid.

I agree that is a possibility, we do not know the likelihood of gravity waves. But the Selker Rift is described as something of an anomaly. The main thing is whether a rogue wave is more likely to bounce off or be absorbed a gravity wave (and so lose its identity, since no one worries about rogue waves within a a gravity wave). The least likely thing would be for a rogue wave to randomly navigate the connected areas that are gravity wave free. Having the ability to ride a rogue wave, just means that you ride along wherever it goes, without the ability to steer.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Tlb suggested that he does not think the author will share anything new about grav waves or rogue grav waves. I will hesitate to board that bus because sooner or later the author will have to give some explanation as to why Darius has not been found. Did David ever give a reason why Galton was not found without the Alignment's own error in Operational Security? At any rate, inaccessible regions of space might solve that problem as well.

Jonathan_S wrote:But we don't need rogue waves to explain why Galton and Darius haven't been found. The sheer enormity of space is more than sufficient reason (especially since, until very recently, nobody was actually looking for them) -- and Occam's razor says that simpler explanation is more likely the correct one.

The author gave a full explanation of how Galton was found: simple triangulation.

As for Darius, the explanation is an unknown wormhole (to the GA), that is being guarded by Mannerheim.

I do NOT understand why you think that there is something magical about rogue waves in a Rift. A Rift is a region of space without any standing gravity wave (so bounded by standing waves) and a rogue wave is gravity "flare" thrown off by one of those standing waves in the Rift. The Selker Rift is completely mapped, so if someone had the physical tools to forecast and utilize the Selker Shear, then they would be able to move about the Rift at full particle shield speed, rather than the cautious speed of everyone else. This would give them a tactical advantage, but would not take them anywhere unknown.

There is no reason to think any other Rift will be different. So they would only find unknown places, if they were searching a previously unknown Rift. Note that no one is ever concerned about rogue waves when they are in a gravity wave.

My question was not how Galton was found. My question was why wasn't Galton found without the MA committing an error in Operational Security. There is nothing simple about triangulation if two points of reference are not known. My point is that Galton was not hidden by an unknown wormhole; yet the incomprehensible expanse of space alone proved to be adequate enough for Galton to remain hidden for a very long time. Galton was only discovered because of a malignant error made by the MAN itself.

Factor in the complexities I am suggesting and Bob's your Uncle.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:As for rifts, I'd quibble slightly that most probably aren't fully bounded, on all 6 sides, by grav waves. So much of hyper is rift that most of that rift area probably connects -- and the bits that get unique names are just the portions of rift that major shipping routes can't avoid.

I agree that is a possibility, we do not know the likelihood of gravity waves. But the Selker Rift is described as something of an anomaly. The main thing is whether a rogue wave is more likely to bounce off or be absorbed a gravity wave (and so lose its identity, since no one worries about rogue waves within a a gravity wave). The least likely thing would be for a rogue wave to randomly navigate the connected areas that are gravity wave free. Having the ability to ride a rogue wave, just means that you ride along wherever it goes, without the ability to steer.

Though HAE does include this tidbit

Echoes of Honor wrote:"Rifts" were volumes of hyper-space between gravity waves. They weren't uncommon; in fact, most of h-space was one huge rift, since grav waves tended to be quite narrow in interstellar terms. Unfortunately, the waves' crazy-quilt patterns meant most voyages required a starship to cross at least one.

Also, it belatedly occurs to me, that if grav waves were so frequent that a majority of rifts were walled off, that the first few centuries of hyper scouts (725 - 1200s PD), before the Warshaski detectors allowed grav waves to be seen and avoided, would have gone from risky to suicidal.

After all, the hyper scout Suffren that surveyed the Manticore system, before its sublight colony ship started off, made the 512 LY run from Earth to Manticore without encountering any grav waves (because, remember, it had no way to detect them at distance - and wouldn't have had the fuel/delta-v to go around them even if it could)
That's one hell of a big rift

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Text implies that there are rogue waves that have caused destruction and as a result, certain waves are avoided. The MA loves a challenge. If all mere mortals are avoiding a grav wave, and the MA is not, then there might be areas of space that are inaccessible to mere mortals. Especially if these roguish rogue grav waves exist in an area of space that is a veritable freak rogue grav-wave storm.

They love a challenge, but are somewhat conservative in risks if they can't mitigate or address them.

Depends on the risk. Sure, they mitigate risks that might lead to their discovery or the discovery of their tech, etc. However, deploying 'storm chasers' in order to map and tame rogue grav waves in order to gain a specific advantage in (amongst other considerations) strategic deployment at the risk of losing ships and men is what I call an insignificant risk for an entity who culls its own people. And for an entity who is not at war where they are constantly losing ships. Besides, the risk would definitely be worth the reward. Inaccessibility and an inherent advantage in strategic deployment.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:As I said before, a grav wave wouldn't help hiding anything unless it's:
a) an especially big rogue wave
b) an exceedingly powerful rogue wave
c) a wave that takes up all of the regular bands (maybe not alpha) but is accessible in iota or kappa

Otherwise, it's not a hiding place. Points (b) and (c) are what you're making and they're already very unlikely. Point (a) is what I made before, that if it isn't blocking off a huge volume in n-space, a nearby neighbour would see your civilisation, in time. We know Galton was indeed very far: about 200 light-years from Mannerheim, which is itself already outside the League. That puts Galton very at the Fringe, at something like 700 light-years from Sol. Darius is a further wormhole from the Mannerheim region so it could be even further out.

What's more, the streak drive wasn't a revolutionary innovation: just brute force. The MAlign couldn't count on it remaining unknown for long, so the hidey-hole could be found easily once the rest of the Universe accessed the kappa and iota bands. They may have hoped to keep the drive a secret a bit longer, but they wouldn't make plans on it remaining a secret.

No, most likely, the streak drive would have enabled them to range much further out for Plan C or D.

If you reread one of my earlier posts you'll see that a, b, and c is what I am suggesting. I am assuming that grav waves are already naturally more powerful in the higher bands. I also reserve a place for the possibility that rogue flares might actually originate in those same higher bands. Along with the possibility that rogue grav waves are more destructive in higher bands. But why would the author have reason to share the specs of rogue grav waves in higher bands with us when the MA is the only entity who accesses those higher bands. The author shall serve no MilSpec before its time.

If an exceptionally large and powerful grav wave exists in the higher bands, bands that are inaccessible to anyone but the MA, then how will the GA reach those relatedly extreme distances without benefit of the higher bands and much more powerful grav waves? Waves that might be ridden much further into remote regions of space. Regions of space where very frequent and very random flares erupt and even occupy most of the regularly traveled bands beginning in those extreme regions of space. Grav waves that require a configuration of the sails that a regular ship's sails cannot achieve without modifications.

I fail to see how the notion is so difficult to understand. If there is only one way to reasonably get to a destination and that one destination is inaccessible to everyone except the MA, then secrecy by inaccessibility is a no brainer.

What I am suggesting is an, as of yet unrevealed, incomprehensible anomaly.

Do also consider that even if the secret of the streak drive is obtained by the GA, they still may have to discover the reconfiguration of the sails and perhaps other tech and information that will take time.

At any rate, even if some of my minor assumptions don't hold gravity, the gist of the notion still does.

Inaccessibility because there is reasonably only one way in and one way out. An incomprehensible anomaly of malignant proportions only found in the MA's own updated version of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

BTW, in my day the terminology for a shady nightclub that only had one way in and one way out is a "Hole in the Wall."

Do forgive the late edits.

penny wrote:I am assuming that grav waves are already naturally more powerful in the higher bands. I also reserve a place for the possibility that rogue flares might actually originate in those same higher bands. Along with the possibility that rogue grav waves are more destructive in higher bands. But why would the author have reason to share the specs of rogue grav waves in higher bands with us when the MA is the only entity who accesses those higher bands. The author shall serve no MilSpec before its time.

If an exceptionally large and powerful grav wave exists in the higher bands, bands that are inaccessible to anyone but the MA, then how will the GA reach those relatedly extreme distances without benefit of the higher bands and much more powerful grav waves? Waves that might be ridden much further into remote regions of space.

Please remember that, according to every rule RFC has given us, a grav wave no matter how powerful cannot increase the top speed of a ship within a given hyper band.

Top speed it limited by rad shielding, and for warships is around 0.6c.

The only things grav wave travel gives you are:
1) Immunity to rogue waves
2) Free power
3) Higher acceleration
(But even if it accelerated you instantly to 0.6c that'd save no more than half a day compared to a normal warship outside the wave -- ships just don't take that long to hit top speed)

So even the most powerful wave they can survive, in the Kappa bands, is only going to let them travel about 45% further per hour than a warship in the Theta bands; so they get to their destination about 31% faster.
The Kappa bands let you cover about 83 LY/week
The Theta bands let you cover 57.5 LY/week

So, if the MAlign are going somewhere that's 6 months away for them, a normal warship could get there in under 9 months. That's an annoying difference, but never an insurmountable one.



Now as to the rest of your post -- if RFC wants to give the MAlign an inaccessible refuge he can certainly do so. But mere distance through hyper isn't going to be able to materially impact that inaccessibility -- they just don't have all that much an advantage there.

(Though of course greater distance, without inaccessibility, still means a larger area to search - and so may delay their discovery)