Talbott Cluster Joining SKM/SEM

Jonathan_S wrote:Though that request might have come from the Manticore side.

Up until Talbott Manticore was able to more or less slot its new acquisitions into the existing Star Kingdom of Manticore, as round trip transit/messaging times to Trevor's Star or Lynx aren't significantly different than to Gryphon. (Lynx being a bit longer as you have to go through the terminus and then several more LY through hyper -- but not crazy long).

Round-trip times to the Lynx Terminus are the same as to any other terminus and roughly to Gryphon / Manticore-B. Manticore-A is about 7 light-hours from the Junction and 13 from Manticore-B. We don't know the distances from their termini to San Martin, Basilisk, or Beowulf, but those should be around the 5 light-hour mark too. That would put the one-way messaging using the Hermes System at about 15 minutes.

But the Lynx System is about 4 light-years away from the terminus. That's too far for the Hermes buoy system and would be too slow anyway at a mere 62c. A ship that reached the Delta band would travel faster, so the shortest communication would be using couriers. If they could reach an average of 3000c, the trip could be done in about half a day, but they won't be able to because even a 750-gravity courier would need 6.8 hours to accelerate to its max speed and that much again to decelerate, plus the time necessary to climb up and down the bands. Call it about one day for a one-way trip carrying mail, instead of 15 minutes.

Or about 100x longer.

Compare that with the Quadrant, which probably has a one-way time of 5 to 10 days. That's an order of magnitude more again. It doesn't make governance impractical -- we managed to have large countries with delays like that well into the railroad era -- but it would have shown that a different model might be in order.

Talbott, on the other hand, caused Manticore to restructure and create a Star Empire of Manticore of which the SKM and Talbott Quadrant were members. The concerns that led to that probably came up in discussions almost as soon as Manticore got the initial inquires about various Talbott systems potentially joining; and those concerns might have driven a request from Manticore's side for Talbott to organize and enter as a unit instead of as separate systems.

Right. But since that portion was skipped in the books, we don't know how exactly it developed.

It's also possible that the members of the Rembrant Trade Union did vote to join as a bloc, which prompted either or both sides to wonder if an even bigger bloc wouldn't be more interesting.

I think Bernardus van Dort was savvy enough to realise that each system alone wasn't interesting to the SKM. None of them had much value. Some of the members of the RTU may have been richer than Lynx, but Lynx had something none of them did: proximity to the terminus. Moreover, shipping would be cumbersome if only a handful were admitted to the Kingdom and were sparse. So the marginal gain for the SKM would be too small to admit each of the new systems as a unit. However, adding billions of people across a dozen star systems would be a huge market, plus it would facilitate local governance and military presence.

Jonathan_S wrote:The Nuncio "'Space Force' consists of exactly eleven light attack craft" [SoS] (Though, to be fair, (Nuncio was described as "a poverty-stricken star system, even for the Verge")

Because Nuncio had the Founding Idiots who made idiotic decisions and they had bad luck in the form of asteroid impacts. The latter might explain why they had the ships they did.

I wouldn't be surprised if most systems in Talbott lacked any hyper capable combatants.

Likely, but I think the bigger ones like Rembrandt and Spindle did have hypercapable ships. The Republic of Monica wasn't too far away and they did have a space navy, after all, so it isn't completely impossible to afford warships. And they may have wanted to have some ships too in case President Roberto Tyler decided to come for a visit. Additionally, early Manticore could afford to run destroyers and cruisers too, and Casca was purchasing an older Havenite battlecruiser during the Secour Conference, in 1535 PD. So the RTU may have wanted to offer its freighters some level of protection when visiting some of the furthest systems, so maybe each of the RTU members had a pair of frigates or destroyers, with a cruiser or two between all of them and in a self-defence pact.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Nuncio "'Space Force' consists of exactly eleven light attack craft" [SoS] (Though, to be fair, (Nuncio was described as "a poverty-stricken star system, even for the Verge")

Because Nuncio had the Founding Idiots who made idiotic decisions and they had bad luck in the form of asteroid impacts. The latter might explain why they had the ships they did.

I wouldn't be surprised if most systems in Talbott lacked any hyper capable combatants.

Likely, but I think the bigger ones like Rembrandt and Spindle did have hypercapable ships. The Republic of Monica wasn't too far away and they did have a space navy, after all, so it isn't completely impossible to afford warships. And they may have wanted to have some ships too in case President Roberto Tyler decided to come for a visit. Additionally, early Manticore could afford to run destroyers and cruisers too, and Casca was purchasing an older Havenite battlecruiser during the Secour Conference, in 1535 PD. So the RTU may have wanted to offer its freighters some level of protection when visiting some of the furthest systems, so maybe each of the RTU members had a pair of frigates or destroyers, with a cruiser or two between all of them and in a self-defence pact.

The RTU systems had at least Destroyers (one delivered Bernardus to the Hexapuma in SoS) and presumedly CLs (New Tuscany (not an RTU member) had at least 3 in it's Navy).

The real question - and almost all of the drama and difficulties- was the terms of the various individual systems joining the SEM was what the terms were going to be for each individual system.
This was not an alliance like Zanzibar joining in a Treaty partnership of "mutual defense" plus trade. While that kind of treaty could be a fairly standard format it would leave the existing government and legal system of the system primarily intact along with the existing political power structure.
With Talbott Cluster, Manticore clearly saw that it wasn't going to negotiate with each system and it's politicians to be carving out all sorts of special exemptions from Manticoran law since that would be an even more massive challenge not only to implement and then go about enforcing. Each system that joined "The Talbots Cluster" of SEM would have to accept the Manticore legal system and adjust its local system laws to it. That included Customs and Boarder Protection, Commercial Law, Manticorian Court Systems and Political Law.
So- whose rice bowl is going to get broken? In the greater shape of what was coming was the existing political structure and dynasties etc of any individual system and the wiping away of literally centuries of local tax structures, and political supremacy primarily by taking our both loopholes and special exemptions or credits and anything affecting trade or business law along with how political office was structured.
We are then treated to the machinations of several sets of planetary poilitical and business leaders dragging their heels and trying to manipulate everything so that they retain all their prior infuluce and special deals (legal and otherwise) as a prerequisite of "joining" Manticore and keeping all their local power. Wasn't going to happen.
Of course all the people scheming and manipulating figured they would get their own personal sweetheart deals out of Manticore to remain in power while willfully ignoring what OFS would have done to them WHEN (not if) the SL moved in. Note that there was a transition period to full membership (I think 50 years) but everybody was going to have to work within the same set of Manticoran laws and legal system.
That's also why things you see like the Royal Manticore Survey being deployed to Montana to get an accurate handle on who owned what (and what was actually anywhere) on Montana as far as boarders/boundries of real estate.

Brigade XO wrote:The real question - and almost all of the drama and difficulties- was the terms of the various individual systems joining the SEM was what the terms were going to be for each individual system.
This was not an alliance like Zanzibar joining in a Treaty partnership of "mutual defense" plus trade. While that kind of treaty could be a fairly standard format it would leave the existing government and legal system of the system primarily intact along with the existing political power structure.
With Talbott Cluster, Manticore clearly saw that it wasn't going to negotiate with each system and it's politicians to be carving out all sorts of special exemptions from Manticoran law since that would be an even more massive challenge not only to implement and then go about enforcing. Each system that joined "The Talbots Cluster" of SEM would have to accept the Manticore legal system and adjust its local system laws to it. That included Customs and Boarder Protection, Commercial Law, Manticorian Court Systems and Political Law.
So- whose rice bowl is going to get broken? In the greater shape of what was coming was the existing political structure and dynasties etc of any individual system and the wiping away of literally centuries of local tax structures, and political supremacy primarily by taking our both loopholes and special exemptions or credits and anything affecting trade or business law along with how political office was structured.
We are then treated to the machinations of several sets of planetary poilitical and business leaders dragging their heels and trying to manipulate everything so that they retain all their prior infuluce and special deals (legal and otherwise) as a prerequisite of "joining" Manticore and keeping all their local power. Wasn't going to happen.
Of course all the people scheming and manipulating figured they would get their own personal sweetheart deals out of Manticore to remain in power while willfully ignoring what OFS would have done to them WHEN (not if) the SL moved in. Note that there was a transition period to full membership (I think 50 years) but everybody was going to have to work within the same set of Manticoran laws and legal system.
That's also why things you see like the Royal Manticore Survey being deployed to Montana to get an accurate handle on who owned what (and what was actually anywhere) on Montana as far as boarders/boundries of real estate.

Interesting post Brigade!

With the inclusion of the Talbot Cluster, does anyone else get the feeling that we are now seeing the SKM in its pre-SL infancy before the SL became corrupt trying to get a handle on the wayward new systems reluctantly "joining" without their full commitment? OFS was formed to help get a handle on it. Will the SKM/SEM suffer from the same pitfalls? I can't believe the SEM would want to even take on such a responsibility. In a time of war, can the SEM fulfill its duties to the Talbot Cluster? An entity like the SL could have caused a lot of problems in the Talbot Cluster during war. The MA certainly will. A lot of the SEM's resources will be drained. There are questions on the horizon.

I know the current trilateral alliance can handle the responsibility if push comes to shove. But I didn't think the alliance with Haven was anything near permanent. That is not to say the two would divert back to being enemies, but is a permanent alliance practical? Your war is my war??? Your wars are my wars??? Systems don't operate in a vacuum. There are its citizens and governments. Citizens and governments are the two entities that are more formidable than war.

penny wrote:With the inclusion of the Talbot Cluster, does anyone else get the feeling that we are now seeing the SKM in its pre-SL infancy before the SL became corrupt trying to get a handle on the wayward new systems reluctantly "joining" without their full commitment? OFS was formed to help get a handle on it. Will the SKM/SEM suffer from the same pitfalls? I can't believe the SEM would want to even take on such a responsibility. In a time of war, can the SEM fulfill its duties to the Talbot Cluster? An entity like the SL could have caused a lot of problems in the Talbot Cluster during war. The MA certainly will. A lot of the SEM's resources will be drained. There are questions on the horizon.

I know the current trilateral alliance can handle the responsibility if push comes to shove. But I didn't think the alliance with Haven was anything near permanent. That is not to say the two would divert back to being enemies, but is a permanent alliance practical? Your war is my war??? Your wars are my wars??? Systems don't operate in a vacuum. There are its citizens and governments. Citizens and governments are the two entities that are more formidable than war.

Everyone in the Talbott Quarter that chose to join is doing so because they really wanted to do so, to the extent of adjusting their laws to match the standards set by Manticore. Even there not every system chose to do what was required and those dissenting systems were left alone. Those systems that chose to join are now a full part of the SEM and there is no question that the SEM will fulfill its responsibilities there.

The more open question is in the part of Silesia where Manticore gained responsibility. Even there nothing like OFS is needed, because the inducements to join are economic support and not military threat (beyond the historical activities of the Navy).

I thought that there were hints in the books of something like modern Europe with mutual defense treaties and freedom of movement between Manticore, Haven and others.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:With the inclusion of the Talbot Cluster, does anyone else get the feeling that we are now seeing the SKM in its pre-SL infancy before the SL became corrupt trying to get a handle on the wayward new systems reluctantly "joining" without their full commitment? OFS was formed to help get a handle on it. Will the SKM/SEM suffer from the same pitfalls? I can't believe the SEM would want to even take on such a responsibility. In a time of war, can the SEM fulfill its duties to the Talbot Cluster? An entity like the SL could have caused a lot of problems in the Talbot Cluster during war. The MA certainly will. A lot of the SEM's resources will be drained. There are questions on the horizon.

I know the current trilateral alliance can handle the responsibility if push comes to shove. But I didn't think the alliance with Haven was anything near permanent. That is not to say the two would divert back to being enemies, but is a permanent alliance practical? Your war is my war??? Your wars are my wars??? Systems don't operate in a vacuum. There are its citizens and governments. Citizens and governments are the two entities that are more formidable than war.

Everyone in the Talbott Quarter that chose to join is doing so because they really wanted to do so, to the extent of adjusting their laws to match the standards set by Manticore. Even there not every system chose to do what was required and those dissenting systems were left alone. Those systems that chose to join are now a full part of the SEM and there is no question that the SEM will fulfill its responsibilities there.

The more open question is in the part of Silesia where Manticore gained responsibility. Even there nothing like OFS is needed, because the inducements to join are economic support and not military threat (beyond the historical activities of the Navy).

I thought that there were hints in the books of something like modern Europe with mutual defense treaties and freedom of movement between Manticore, Haven and others.

I should have made it clear. My thoughts of a pre-SL-like SEM included the absorption of Silesia along with the Talbot Cluster. I am under the impression that the SL grew quite a bit in its early infancy. Way beyond even the SEM's absorption of the Talbot Cluster and Silesia.

Also, every system in the Talbot Cluster might have unanimously agreed on joining the SEM as a whole, regarding each system. But I am not so sure that each system's voting polls were unanimous. And that sort of disagreement can cause problems for big businesses on each planet. Big businesses that have the venture capital to fund private operations to sever the agreement. Consider what someone like Hauptman could have done to make trouble and to deter any alliances Manticore may have sought out in the early days of the system.

Alliances aren't always smooth as silk. Are they ever?

tlb wrote:The more open question is in the part of Silesia where Manticore gained responsibility. Even there nothing like OFS is needed, because the inducements to join are economic support and not military threat (beyond the historical activities of the Navy).

The Andermani did annex their half of the partitioned Silesia, but IIRC isn't Manticore still treating their half as a protectorate?

I'd thought that the plan was to stabilize things and clean up as much of the corruption as they could, and then allow each world a plebiscite on its future. I think we're mostly assuming they'll vote in favor of joining the SEM, but I don't think they're there yet and (like in Talbott) some may choose to go their own way. And of those who vote not to join with Manticore some might even potentially even choose to join together and create a new (smaller) independent multi-system Silesian government.


I guess it's not impossible that Manticore might eventually morph into an expansionistic empire -- but I suspect that both their culture and economics will work against such a change. (The wormhole network is their economic golden goose -- new systems aren't anywhere near as economically valuable to them. While long term they should be net profitable, producing more tax revenue than is spent supporting and defending them, it's going to be pretty low return and slow to materialize. (Though some companies will likely make short term profits on government contract to assist new member systems)

penny wrote:Also, every system in the Talbot Cluster might have unanimously agreed on joining the SEM as a whole, regarding each system. But I am not so sure that each system's voting polls were unanimous. And that sort of disagreement can cause problems for big businesses on each planet. Big businesses that have the venture capital to fund private operations to sever the agreement. Consider what someone like Hauptman could have done to make trouble and to deter any alliances Manticore may have sought out in the early days of the system.

Not every system chose to join, because they did not want their oligarchies disturbed. The wiser people realized that their percentage share of the wealth would end up being a number lower than currently, but they would still be very well off.

The books make it clear that the pre-existing business arrangements (mainly oligarchies) were not investing enough in the economies; but as part of membership Manticore promised tax breaks to outside investors that partnered with local businesses and this should greatly expand the local economies to the benefit of everyone (not just the elites). Outside investors from Manticore have much more capital than anyone local could put up.

tlb wrote:The more open question is in the part of Silesia where Manticore gained responsibility. Even there nothing like OFS is needed, because the inducements to join are economic support and not military threat (beyond the historical activities of the Navy).

Jonathan_S wrote:The Andermani did annex their half of the partitioned Silesia, but IIRC isn't Manticore still treating their half as a protectorate?

I'd thought that the plan was to stabilize things and clean up as much of the corruption as they could, and then allow each world a plebiscite on its future. I think we're mostly assuming they'll vote in favor of joining the SEM, but I don't think they're there yet and (like in Talbott) some may choose to go their own way. And of those who vote not to join with Manticore some might even potentially even choose to join together and create a new (smaller) independent multi-system Silesian government.

I agree and the inducement is economic, the same in the Talbott Quarter.

I assume that those that do not join will still receive some protection from Manticore (including piracy patrols), also the same as those that did not join in the Talbott Quarter.