?

penny wrote:At any rate, it isn't so much Silesia that could be important thus worth the effort, inasmuch as possibly being able to ride the rogue wave to regions of space where no Man-ticoran has gone before. If riding a rogue wave could take you to inaccessible regions of space, that is. In that case, a new hidey-hole for the MA would be completely inaccessible to anyone but the MA. As well as any bases producing LDs at phenomenal build rates.

It can't be somewhere far, otherwise you could just go around the rogue wave at high speed. That wouldn't make the place inaccessible.

Inaccessibility could be only because the system exists where an especially powerful rogue wave is known to appear frequently but randomly. That would make colonisation either impractical or merely annoying. So there might indeed be planets where one could hide.

But is this close to other inhabited systems or shipping lanes? If it is close, then you run the risk of someone surveying for the heck of it. Or your electromagnetic noise reaching inhabited systems at the speed of light and ruining your secret.

If it is far, then why did you need a rogue wave? The chance of someone stumbling upon you is low because of the distance.

That wasn't Honor's de facto convoy in the Selker Rift in _Honor Among Enemies_, that was Klaus Hauptman's de facto convoy (when he realized that the "Hawkwind" had been detailed to keep an eye on the liner "Artemis", he added a few of his merchant ships to the formation).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:At any rate, it isn't so much Silesia that could be important thus worth the effort, inasmuch as possibly being able to ride the rogue wave to regions of space where no Man-ticoran has gone before. If riding a rogue wave could take you to inaccessible regions of space, that is. In that case, a new hidey-hole for the MA would be completely inaccessible to anyone but the MA. As well as any bases producing LDs at phenomenal build rates.

It can't be somewhere far, otherwise you could just go around the rogue wave at high speed. That wouldn't make the place inaccessible.

Inaccessibility could be only because the system exists where an especially powerful rogue wave is known to appear frequently but randomly. That would make colonisation either impractical or merely annoying. So there might indeed be planets where one could hide.

But is this close to other inhabited systems or shipping lanes? If it is close, then you run the risk of someone surveying for the heck of it. Or your electromagnetic noise reaching inhabited systems at the speed of light and ruining your secret.

If it is far, then why did you need a rogue wave? The chance of someone stumbling upon you is low because of the distance.

It could be a combination of the above. Very far, and in the midst of very powerful gravity wave(s).

From the outset, I always imagined rogue grav waves to be akin to rogue solar flares. Rogue grav waves should vary in intensity, from far above normal (as I will personally label the Selker Shear for the sake of conversation) to very insanely beyond the Selker Shear. IOW, a wave that makes the Selker Shear look like a wave in the kiddie pool by comparison. Where a very special arrangement of the sails is required for certain. It may require a varying configuration of the sails throughout the trip. Much like a wet navy has to continually adjust for the wind. I am under the impression that in the HV the sails are a set and forget matter in hyperspace.

If the MA has mapped these very dangerous anomalies, it might be able to o ride them to, again, heretofore, inaccessible regions of space by mere spaceborn lifeforms. The hidey-hole could be very very far away plus sitting in the middle of where a gaggle of grav waves end up. Let's call it a "rogue settlement of grav waves."

penny wrote:If the MA has mapped these very dangerous anomalies, it might be able to o ride them to, again, heretofore, inaccessible regions of space by mere spaceborn lifeforms. The hidey-hole could be very very far away plus sitting in the middle of where a gaggle of grav waves end up. Let's call it a "rogue settlement of grav waves."

I fail to see how a see how mapping takes someone into "heretofore inaccessible regions of space"; since the Selker Shear just takes you in or out of Silesia - a very known area of space.

PS: Honorverse sails are NOT "set and forget", if for no other reason that they have to be adjusted to cut acceleration to zero when the maximum velocity is reached.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:If the MA has mapped these very dangerous anomalies, it might be able to o ride them to, again, heretofore, inaccessible regions of space by mere spaceborn lifeforms. The hidey-hole could be very very far away plus sitting in the middle of where a gaggle of grav waves end up. Let's call it a "rogue settlement of grav waves."

I fail to see how a see how mapping takes someone into "heretofore inaccessible regions of space"; since the Selker Shear just takes you in or out of Silesia - a very known area of space.

PS: Honorverse sails are NOT "set and forget", if for no other reason that they have to be adjusted to cut acceleration to zero when the maximum velocity is reached.

Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Having to adjust sails to cut acceleration has nothing to do with their configuration during the majority of the trip.

At any rate, are you confident the author has shared everything there is to know about grav waves and rogue grav waves with us?

penny wrote:Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Having to adjust sails to cut acceleration has nothing to do with their configuration during the majority of the trip.

At any rate, are you confident the author has shared everything there is to know about grav waves and rogue grav waves with us?

Mapping gravity waves is a good idea; but you seemed to be writing about mapping rogue waves, which are of random duration and extent.

Very well, once the maximum velocity has been reached then the sails may not need further adjustment. I was merely stating that they do need adjustment after the initial entry.

I will be surprised if the author adds much to our current knowledge of gravity waves, including rogue ones. A more profitable line of research might be improvements in finding wormholes.

penny wrote:From the outset, I always imagined rogue grav waves to be akin to rogue solar flares. Rogue grav waves should vary in intensity, from far above normal (as I will personally label the Selker Shear for the sake of conversation) to very insanely beyond the Selker Shear. IOW, a wave that makes the Selker Shear look like a wave in the kiddie pool by comparison. Where a very special arrangement of the sails is required for certain. It may require a varying configuration of the sails throughout the trip. Much like a wet navy has to continually adjust for the wind. I am under the impression that in the HV the sails are a set and forget matter in hyperspace.

Even normal grav waves aren't set and forget on the sails. They have turbulence and variation that requires careful sail adjustment to ride through. Here's a bit from the first book explaining that in the context of Sirus's excuse to hang around in orbit.

On Basilisk Station wrote:Improved Warshawskis had tended to offset the first difficulty by extending their detection range and warning ships of turbulence. With enough warning time, a ship could usually trim its sails to ride through turbulence by adjusting their density and "grab factor," though failure to trim in time remained deadly, which was why Sirius's claim of tuner flutter had been so serious.

Now this sounds like it is largely a routine matter these days - and probably handled automatically by the ship's computers. But just because the sail adjustment might be routine and rarely mentioned doesn't mean it isn't critical to safe sailing.

penny wrote:Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Unknown. Some grav waves likely extend off into uninhabited space and may not have been followed to their end. (Why bother if it's not taking you towards anything of interest?) But I suspect (though can't think of any text-ev either way) that the majority of grav waves have, at one point or another, been traveled end to end.

Also, there's no evidence that a non-rogue wave ever gets unsafe to travel in. Most wave are described as "fixed" meaning they don't move around. There's nothing that indicates that if you go far enough they cease to be fixed and start flaring or moving or occasional disappearing and reappearing or otherwise become more dangerous. Maybe they do, but I can't think of or find any hint of that in the text.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Having to adjust sails to cut acceleration has nothing to do with their configuration during the majority of the trip.

At any rate, are you confident the author has shared everything there is to know about grav waves and rogue grav waves with us?

Mapping gravity waves is a good idea; but you seemed to be writing about mapping rogue waves, which are of random duration and extent.

Very well, once the maximum velocity has been reached then the sails may not need further adjustment. I was merely stating that they do need adjustment after the initial entry.

I will be surprised if the author adds much to our current knowledge of gravity waves, including rogue ones. A more profitable line of research might be improvements in finding wormholes.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Having to adjust sails to cut acceleration has nothing to do with their configuration during the majority of the trip.

At any rate, are you confident the author has shared everything there is to know about grav waves and rogue grav waves with us?

Mapping gravity waves is a good idea; but you seemed to be writing about mapping rogue waves, which are of random duration and extent.

Very well, once the maximum velocity has been reached then the sails may not need further adjustment. I was merely stating that they do need adjustment after the initial entry.

I will be surprised if the author adds much to our current knowledge of gravity waves, including rogue ones. A more profitable line of research might be improvements in finding wormholes.

Indeed, I am talking about mapping rogue grav waves. It just might turn out to be that rogue grav waves are not so chaotic after all. In which case they only appeared to be random, just like certain data in number theory might be disputed in the future.

Consider the thirty-six years it took to solve the Boolean Pythagorean triples problem. And its 200 Terabyte proof. A proof that wouldn't exist if someone didn't go looking because of a $100 challenge. The MA has come up with some interesting technology because of necessity. Necessity is the mother of invention. Those inventions were made possible because of their necessity and willingness to go down rabbit holes chasing what must have seemed like ridiculous research.

https://www.electronicproducts.com/supe ... yte-proof/

Consider the passage someone offered up for consumption a few grav waves back.

A Call to Duty wrote:First: we gather data. What I mean by that is that we not only make sure to analyze the downloads from each ship that visits our systems, but that we speak directly to the ships’ personnel about any problems they might have had and ask for their routine computer status dumps to track down and quantify those problems. If there are pirates poking around someone’s hyper limit, there may be clues buried in routine data that will help us nail down which systems have been targeted. Conversely, if we’re wrong and the disappearances are indeed accidents, that same data may help us pinpoint rogue grav waves or other anomalies that future ships can then avoid.

Then consider that the MA has shown an incredible ability to obtain survey records from throughout the galaxy. Who is to say they didn't use that data to map rogue waves earlier in their history. Also consider the MA had to undoubtedly skulk around various parts of the galaxy utilizing back roads and alleys where nobody would see them. Later they had the help of the streak drive that might have allowed them to catalogue the very origins of rogue grav waves (which may turn out to originate in the top hyper bands).

But regardless of their origin, MA ships would undoubtedly skulk around where most ships do not, and streak drive ships might have amassed enough data to become beneficial as far as guestimating their frequency. Measured intensity might be an indicator to frequency that nobody else thought of.

At any rate, if the MA is always operating in the sewer and rogue grav waves originate in the sewer, then the MA very well might have a better chance at cataloguing / mapping them. Especially if the MA, and the MA alone, foresaw an inherent advantage of mapping them where nobody else did.

Committing research to finding wormholes may be more profitable to whom? The MA already has a profitable method of finding wormholes. Steal the data, manipulate the data, corrupt the data then bribe and kill. Finding better ways to hide will always be very profitable to Malignant enterprises.

penny wrote:Then consider that the MA has shown an incredible ability to obtain survey records from throughout the galaxy. Who is to say they didn't use that data to map rogue waves earlier in their history. Also consider the MA had to undoubtedly skulk around various parts of the galaxy utilizing back roads and alleys where nobody would see them. Later they had the help of the streak drive that might have allowed them to catalogue the very origins of rogue grav waves (which may turn out to originate in the top hyper bands).

But regardless of their origin, MA ships would undoubtedly skulk around where most ships do not, and streak drive ships might have amassed enough data to become beneficial as far as guestimating their frequency. Measured intensity might be an indicator to frequency that nobody else thought of.

At any rate, if the MA is always operating in the sewer and rogue grav waves originate in the sewer, then the MA very well might have a better chance at cataloguing / mapping them. Especially if the MA, and the MA alone, foresaw an inherent advantage of mapping them where nobody else did.

Committing research to finding wormholes may be more profitable to whom? The MA already has a profitable method of finding wormholes. Steal the data, manipulate the data, corrupt the data then bribe and kill. Finding better ways to hide will always be very profitable to Malignant enterprises.

The Malign certainly has used the process of corrupting, bribing and killing to obtain data that no one else has; that is how they obtained Galton and probably the wormhole to Darius.

Stealing is only good if they can steal from the only people who know a secret and then can eliminate them afterwards.

Yes, they can skulk around and if they had a superior way to detect wormholes, they would have secret ways to travel to places unknown to the civilized world.

A computer proof has nothing to do with whether the author will choose to give you the rogue wave information that you want. But if it makes you happy to think he might give the Malign this ability, then go ahead.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:From the outset, I always imagined rogue grav waves to be akin to rogue solar flares. Rogue grav waves should vary in intensity, from far above normal (as I will personally label the Selker Shear for the sake of conversation) to very insanely beyond the Selker Shear. IOW, a wave that makes the Selker Shear look like a wave in the kiddie pool by comparison. Where a very special arrangement of the sails is required for certain. It may require a varying configuration of the sails throughout the trip. Much like a wet navy has to continually adjust for the wind. I am under the impression that in the HV the sails are a set and forget matter in hyperspace.

Even normal grav waves aren't set and forget on the sails. They have turbulence and variation that requires careful sail adjustment to ride through. Here's a bit from the first book explaining that in the context of Sirus's excuse to hang around in orbit.

On Basilisk Station wrote:Improved Warshawskis had tended to offset the first difficulty by extending their detection range and warning ships of turbulence. With enough warning time, a ship could usually trim its sails to ride through turbulence by adjusting their density and "grab factor," though failure to trim in time remained deadly, which was why Sirius's claim of tuner flutter had been so serious.

Now this sounds like it is largely a routine matter these days - and probably handled automatically by the ship's computers. But just because the sail adjustment might be routine and rarely mentioned doesn't mean it isn't critical to safe sailing.

penny wrote:Mapping only provides the data and unearths other possibilities. Is the average grav wave ridden as far as possible? Can all grav waves be ridden as far as possible before the ship has to exit the grav wave before it becomes too dangerous?

Unknown. Some grav waves likely extend off into uninhabited space and may not have been followed to their end. (Why bother if it's not taking you towards anything of interest?) But I suspect (though can't think of any text-ev either way) that the majority of grav waves have, at one point or another, been traveled end to end.

Also, there's no evidence that a non-rogue wave ever gets unsafe to travel in. Most wave are described as "fixed" meaning they don't move around. There's nothing that indicates that if you go far enough they cease to be fixed and start flaring or moving or occasional disappearing and reappearing or otherwise become more dangerous. Maybe they do, but I can't think of or find any hint of that in the text.

This is interesting.


From the internet.

Can turbulence cause a plane to crash?

No, normal turbulence that aircraft experience will typically not cause an aircraft to “crash” for two reasons.

1. Most turbulence is well within what aircraft are designed to fly through.

2. For moderate or extreme turbulence, pilots are trained to slow the aircraft down to the appropriate “maneuvering speed” for the aircraft’s current weight. This protects the aircraft in that if it encounters extreme turbulence, the aircraft wings will essentially “stall” before the aircraft is damaged. The concept of “stall” in this case doesn’t mean the pilot loses control, it’s simply a design feature that protects the aircraft’s structure.

Having said all of that, in the golden early days of flying, aircraft either knowingly or unknowingly penetrated cumulus clouds (the tall puffy ones) that often harbored severe turbulence and thunderstorms and that resulted in a few cases where the aircraft suffered structural failure and crashed.

This Cumulonimbus is a full blooded thunderstorm. My weather display showed that there were four or five individual thunderstorm “cells” within that mass. My aircraft was at 25,000 feet and you can see that the tops of that monster was maybe 40,000 or 50,000 feet. No passenger aircraft would EVER intentionally penetrate that cloud.

Today’s aircraft are structurally more robust and even better but they still avoid thunderstorms because of the severity of the possible turbulence.

Also, weather sources and onboard radar allow aircraft to avoid the worst of the weather.

If I haven't had over one hundred flights in my lifetime, it is very darn close to it. But I have never ever experienced turbulence. At least not like I did at about fifteen years old. In a crop duster! It was a single prop plane with no doors on it so the pilot could see the land that he was about to dust clearly. This was back in the day when there was no technology in crop dusters like there is now. And the industry was not regulated back then. It isn't really regulated now.

But I was dating a farmer's daughter. And when you date a farmer's daughter, expect to pitch in. We were headed to the nearby city and flew into an unexpected storm. I had never experienced turbulence like that before. Along with that turbulence was lightning that appeared as if I could reach out of the plane (which had no doors) and catch a lightning bolt with my hand! Heck no I didn't try! I was too busy trying not to $h*t my pants! But I digress. Chalk it up to a passionate attack of the flashbacks that are not under my control.

The passage says that plane crashes due to turbulence don't really happen, today. In my time they did. Today's planes are built to help withstand the damage that would be caused by turbulence, But mostly, today's planes have the benefit of much more sophisticated weather warnings and can simply avoid flying into dangerous turbulence.

Having digressed, shared a flashback and said all of that, in the HV I fully expect that turbulence is far more dangerous than it is on a planet. Not the same thing at all. But what is the same is the necessity of being forewarned. In the middle of a grav wave, if turbulence hits I do not know if there is any kind of warning. But one thing is for certain, the sails must be adjusted in some fashion. I would hazard a guess that trimming the sails is computer controlled. I wouldn't expect manual adjustment to be able to react fast enough. Therefore, I will still suggest that the sails are a set and forget matter, besides adjusting for speed and computer controlled trimming of the sails due to turbulence. There might be minor adjustments of the sails throughout the trip even in a normal grav wave; which I believe would also be accomplished under computer control.

I am positing an insanely powerful rogue grav wave that also appears to be very very random. But what is more dangerous is its inherent turbulence that is so severe that it is always fatal. It has the sort of turbulence that normal computers cannot adjust for because perhaps the sails cannot be trimmed in the fashion that need be.

Text implies that there are rogue waves that have caused destruction and as a result, certain waves are avoided. The MA loves a challenge. If all mere mortals are avoiding a grav wave, and the MA is not, then there might be areas of space that are inaccessible to mere mortals. Especially if these roguish rogue grav waves exist in an area of space that is a veritable freak rogue grav-wave storm.