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penny wrote:1. Does gravity escape a black hole?
2. Does gravity exist outside a black hole?

markusschaber wrote:I don't think those are the relevant questions.

The relevant question is: Do the gravitational effects of a black hole extend further than the event horizon?

And the answer clearly is yes, because those effects are what's pulling things towards the event horizon.

I do not know how you are distinguishing between relevant and irrelevant, because I do not see how your phrasing of the question is substantially different. The gravitational field of the black hole extends outside of the event horizon. "Gravity", Gravitational Effect" and "Gravitational Field" are the same in common parlance. As long as we understand the second question as reading "Does gravity due to a black hole exist outside a black hole's event horizon?", then it is asking the same question as you are and is what is meant by asking "Does gravity escape a black hole's event horizon?".

Admittedly if Penny were asking in his second question "Does gravity due to other objects exist outside a black hole's event horizon?", then that would be very irrelevant.

Brigade XO wrote:So the Sharks came out of Hyperdrive WAY out from MBS linked together by just bringing the energy in hyper WAY down so they could just "slide" out of hyper and only create a very small transition signal that was picked up by the MBS sensor net. Then they used their Spider drives to ...slowly... move away from the appearance site and be far enough away from it before the Destroyers arrived to check out the signal.

How fast could/can the Sharks move in Hyper? For example, how many days to move the distance from Sol to Manticore?

How fast can a LD move in Hyper?
We have already been told that LDs are greatly restricted in how fast they can accelerate in n-space due to the lack of compensator function because they are not using impeller dives.

How fast can an LD build up the appropriate amount of energy to the system is needs to transition INTO hyper. Not having a wedge to provide any kind of shielding, it is probable that other than trusting to superior stealth (but still having to deal with possible exposure by having to expel heat into space) isn't the only real way to get out of harms way to "quietly" slip into hyper and get the hell out of wherever they are when somebody's warship comes looking for the source of whatever caught's it's tactical systems interest?
Can anyone track an LD in hyper?

Presumably the Sharks and the LDs have the same rad shielding any other warship. So 0.6c within the local hyper band, just like everything from destroyers up to SD(P)s.

Their strategic advantage though is that both classes undoubtable carry streak drives; allowing them to access two bands higher into hyperspace than any other nation's warships.
We haven't been given a canonical number for the velocity multiplier compression ratio for the Kappa bands, but given some of the text-ev transit times it appears to about about 1.45x higher than the Theta bands - allowing a warship to make about 4354.8c equivalent; compared to 3000c equivalent.

But while the spider drive ships have the same top speed, they'll take longer to work up to it. If they want to restrict themselves to 1g experienced (150Gs) they can accelerate from rest to 0.6c in about 34 hours. They could shave up to nearly 10 hours off that; if willing to subject their crews to max combat acceleration (over a day at 4gs experienced)
Slowing down should be faster because, even if they want to make a near-zero KPS translation out of the Alpha bands, they'd be cruising higher and would bleed off most of their velocity dropping down into the Alpha bands. Only the final translation out of the Alpha bands matters for the visibility of the emergence flare.

In comparison, as designed, an Invictus-class SD(P) would reach 0.6c in just 10 hours. (And they're quicker than that now -- we just don't know by exactly how much).


However on a trip of any significant distance the higher hyper band totally wins out over the lower acceleration; so expect a spider ship to make the trip between most systems more quickly than an RMN warship could.

Jonathan_S wrote:However on a trip of any significant distance the higher hyper band totally wins out over the lower acceleration; so expect a spider ship to make the trip between most systems more quickly than an RMN warship could.

With Galton conquered, it should not take much time for the newest Grand Alliance warships to also have streak drives. They already have the theoretician and with Galton should have many working examples, including the manufacturing plants to build more.

What will take somewhat longer is for the GA to develop the improvements that Herlander Simões was working on.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:However on a trip of any significant distance the higher hyper band totally wins out over the lower acceleration; so expect a spider ship to make the trip between most systems more quickly than an RMN warship could.

With Galton conquered, it should not take much time for the newest Grand Alliance warships to also have streak drives. They already have the theoretician and with Galton should have many working examples, including the manufacturing plants to build more.

What will take somewhat longer is for the GA to develop the improvements that Herlander Simões was working on.

Hmm - they've had about a year since Herlander Simões showed up. Obviously he didn't have the full blueprints for the streak drive to give; he should at least have had a good feel for how much larger it was than a normal hyper generator.

I wonder whether the GA modified their designs to start leaving room (and access) to retrofit oversized hyper generators, and if so how quickly they made that change. Even so, anything that was completed prior to the end of the 2nd war with Haven probably needs a multi-month long yard period to retrofit in a streak drive; as they'd be too old to have been built with the knowledge a larger generator might be coming. (They probably not only have to move walls and utilities around to make space for it, but the access passageways and armored hatches leading from the exterior to the (presumably) deeply buried hyper generator room may be too small for the oversized components of the streak drive. Cutting out larger opening as well as removing interior obstructions isn't a minor refit.

Obviously once they can start building the streak drive it can be incorporated on the slipways; but since it takes over a year to build an SD(P) new built ships with streak drives are a ways off even if Galton gave them everything they needed to start building generators that day.

So, as I alluded to, the question seems to be how many ships completed in the last year or so were set up to make the swap as 'drop-in' as possible? That'll probably dictate how long it'll be until they have full squadrons or fleets able to properly utilize the streak drive. (You're only as fast as your slowest ship)


Still, if the MAlign lies low for a bit and things go back to trying the intel out their hiding place that'd give time get get a streak capable GA fleet. But if the end game happens within the next couple years they probably won't have more than a few ships, at most, equipped with it. (OTOH if the end game comes that soon the MAlign is unlikely to get many LDs into service -- which'd make things a bit anti-climactic )

Who said Galton had any knowledge or examples of the Streak Drive?

IMO, being the conceptor of new technology should be advantageous. He who conceived of it should have a clearer vision of the path to fruition. Look at the MA. The MA knows about the GA’s reactor technology but are slow getting there.

Now I wonder about Grayson's innovation in reactor technology. Was Grayson not aware of current tech at the time? Yet they came up with ground breaking innovations. Knowing something is possible yet limiting anyone else's influence might be beneficial.

Knowing the equations should speed things up a bit. So having the theoretician at hand should help considerably. But are we certain that Simoes is the theoretician? I thought he simply assisted with certain aspects of the Streak drive.

****** *

So, someone is sitting in the War Room in the Darius system positioning LDs and other pieces on the chess board at Streak drive speeds!

But, woe! Our current discussion makes my spider senses tingle. But first an apparently much needed disclaimer. I am not saying, via the author, the MA will adopt a black hole to hide their warship’s emergence. But if they do, it shouldn't surprise us. Think about it. Without being able to hide their warship's emergence, having to emerge months out kind of defeats any strategic and tactical advantage of the Streak drive, right?

So, barring its use to corner the market on trade and information, the Streak drive would be relatively useless tactically. Although, it could possibly still present a bit of strategic advantage by solving the old coordination of forces, the Two General’s Problem.


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Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm - they've had about a year since Herlander Simões showed up. Obviously he didn't have the full blueprints for the streak drive to give; he should at least have had a good feel for how much larger it was than a normal hyper generator.

I wonder whether the GA modified their designs to start leaving room (and access) to retrofit oversized hyper generators, and if so how quickly they made that change. Even so, anything that was completed prior to the end of the 2nd war with Haven probably needs a multi-month long yard period to retrofit in a streak drive; as they'd be too old to have been built with the knowledge a larger generator might be coming. (They probably not only have to move walls and utilities around to make space for it, but the access passageways and armored hatches leading from the exterior to the (presumably) deeply buried hyper generator room may be too small for the oversized components of the streak drive. Cutting out larger opening as well as removing interior obstructions isn't a minor refit.

Obviously once they can start building the streak drive it can be incorporated on the slipways; but since it takes over a year to build an SD(P) new built ships with streak drives are a ways off even if Galton gave them everything they needed to start building generators that day.

So, as I alluded to, the question seems to be how many ships completed in the last year or so were set up to make the swap as 'drop-in' as possible? That'll probably dictate how long it'll be until they have full squadrons or fleets able to properly utilize the streak drive. (You're only as fast as your slowest ship)


Still, if the MAlign lies low for a bit and things go back to trying the intel out their hiding place that'd give time get get a streak capable GA fleet. But if the end game happens within the next couple years they probably won't have more than a few ships, at most, equipped with it. (OTOH if the end game comes that soon the MAlign is unlikely to get many LDs into service -- which'd make things a bit anti-climactic )

Optimistically if they had changed the plans to incorporate the streak drive (when available) and had put the hyper-generator room next to one of the walls protected by the wedge (perhaps with an armored hatch), then anything laid down could be converted after the streak drives arrive with just some yard time. Those still in the building slips could be converted in place. So that year for an an SD(P) would begin counting as of the beginning of construction after the plans had been changed. Also lighter units (cruisers and destroyers) would be less than a year. A fleet may only be as fast as the slowest unit, but the scouting ships still can use the extra speed.

The remarks from the author made it sound as there might be an interlude:

Mar 6, 2024 Facebook update from RFC wrote:If you’ve been paying attention elsewhere, Marisa Wolf and I are currently ramping up to complete the Crown of Slaves/Alignment story arc following Eric’s death. As things stand now, the first novel in that project will probably launch the next generation of Harringtons’ story arc, as well. And Jacob Holo and I are simultaneously in development on the life of Edward Saganami while Jan Kotouč is working on the story of the Star Empire in the Silesian Confederacy.

I would point out in passing that as far as I am concerned I wrapped the original story arc I had planned for Honor herself in UNCOMPROMISING HONOR. Actually, she was supposed to have died before that point in my original plan for the series, but stuff happened that changed the storyline. I more or less brought her out of retirement in END IN FIRE, but she was right when she told Elizabeth 40 years of active duty was enough, at least for a while.

The complete text is in the Free-Range Topics post by UncleFrank.

penny wrote:Who said Galton had any knowledge or examples of the Streak Drive?

IMO, being the conceptor of new technology should be advantageous. He who conceived of it should have a clearer vision of the path to fruition. Look at the MA. The MA knows about the GA’s reactor technology but are slow getting there.

Now I wonder about Grayson's innovation in reactor technology. Was Grayson not aware of current tech at the time? Yet they came up with ground breaking innovations. Knowing something is possible yet limiting anyone else's influence might be beneficial.

Knowing the equations should speed things up a bit. So having the theoretician at hand should help considerably. But are we certain that Simoes is the theoretician? I thought he simply assisted with certain aspects of the Streak drive.

If Galton does not have the streak drive, then that is a massive failure of the plan to let Galton take all the blame. Herlander Simões was a crucial part of the team to make improvements to the streak drive. We know for certain that Galton did not have the spider drive; if they also do not have the streak drive (which the GA knows exists with certainty), then it becomes obvious that Galton was a decoy.

It might be possible to finesse the lack of information about the spider drive. Galton is said to have documentation which shows that Oyster Bay could have been carried out with the three second graser and otherwise well known technology. If it were to also have documentation of failed attempts to develop a spider drive, complete with plans that proved to be useless, then Herlander's knowledge might be thought to be about something that did not work.

penny wrote:Who said Galton had any knowledge or examples of the Streak Drive?.

The author of the books

To End in Fire wrote:Everything produced in Galton came to Darius, where it was evaluated and integrated into a database and research programs which both paralleled those of Galton and also headed in completely different directions. As just one example, the streak drive had been developed in Galton

It then goes on to say the spider drive was a Darius invention that Galton was kept unaware of.

penny wrote:Who said Galton had any knowledge or examples of the Streak Drive?.

Jonathan_S wrote:The author of the books

To End in Fire wrote:Everything produced in Galton came to Darius, where it was evaluated and integrated into a database and research programs which both paralleled those of Galton and also headed in completely different directions. As just one example, the streak drive had been developed in Galton

It then goes on to say the spider drive was a Darius invention that Galton was kept unaware of.

That makes it interesting in the question of who gets sent to Galton and who gets sent to Darius; because knowledge of the spider drive obviously made its way back to Mesa where Herlander was aware of it. How can they be sure that no one was sent to Galton, who may of heard about the spider drive on Mesa?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Who said Galton had any knowledge or examples of the Streak Drive?.

The author of the books

To End in Fire wrote:Everything produced in Galton came to Darius, where it was evaluated and integrated into a database and research programs which both paralleled those of Galton and also headed in completely different directions. As just one example, the streak drive had been developed in Galton

It then goes on to say the spider drive was a Darius invention that Galton was kept unaware of.

Thanks. That I don't recall at all. I must've been 'pillow talking' with Honor.

Seeing as though the streak drive is really top secret, if there were any examples they would be destroyed. And any top secret files should have been too. The MA is too top-secret, compartmentalized and paranoid to make that mistake. Especially since Galton was warned that they might have company calling.

So, all research from Galton goes to Darius where it splits off and goes into different directions, eh? Which means the streak drive may have been improved. Is there another band in hyper available for conquest?