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tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Wedges are intense bands of gravity and they do not create ripples along the Alpha wall while in n-space. Only when a wedge transitions from hyper does it create ripples on the Alpha wall.

Yes, there is a ripple on the transition. But the wedge bends the Alpha wall while the ship is in normal space. That is how the ship gets its additional power and it allows the FTL tracing of the ship as it moves about in normal space.

It is a spider drive ship that only makes a ripple on a transition and NOT (according to the author) as it moves about.

How is any of that relevant? An FTL detector cannot detect anything that is happening in hyper.

Huh? Wait! When ships transition to n-space there is the azure bleed of the sails and a ripple on the Alpha wall. If ships traveling along in n-space are also creating ripples along the Alpha wall, how does an FTL detector detect anything amidst the noise of ripples created by everything else? That doesn't make any sense.

penny wrote:Wedges are intense bands of gravity and they do not create ripples along the Alpha wall while in n-space. Only when a wedge transitions from hyper does it create ripples on the Alpha wall.

tlb wrote:Yes, there is a ripple on the transition. But the wedge bends the Alpha wall while the ship is in normal space. That is how the ship gets its additional power and it allows the FTL tracing of the ship as it moves about in normal space.

It is a spider drive ship that only makes a ripple on a transition and NOT (according to the author) as it moves about.

penny wrote:How is any of that relevant? An FTL detector cannot detect anything that is happening in hyper.

Huh? Wait! When ships transition to n-space there is the azure bleed of the sails and a ripple on the Alpha wall. If ships traveling along in n-space are also creating ripples along the Alpha wall, how does an FTL detector detect anything amidst the noise of ripples created by everything else? That doesn't make any sense.

What?? A wedge drive ship in normal space can be detected by the ripples it creates on the Alpha wall - which is the opposite of what you wrote.

If the ship is in hyperspace and the detector is in the same band, then there are ripples on the wall of the next higher band that can be detected. But there is a problem with noise and the signal does not travel as fast (so not 60 times light speed).

Ask the author to make sense of it.

penny wrote:Huh? Wait! When ships transition to n-space there is the azure bleed of the sails and a ripple on the Alpha wall. If ships traveling along in n-space are also creating ripples along the Alpha wall, how does an FTL detector detect anything amidst the noise of ripples created by everything else? That doesn't make any sense.

The azure bleed of the sails only exists if its transitioning from within a grav wave -- otherwise it'd have a wedge up. No info on whether a wedge optically flares on translating down (but the extreme gravity might directionally spray those photons so most observers wouldn't see the glow. But that's kind of irrelevant because, while very pretty, that optical bleed isn't how hyper emergence is detected.



As for how the ripples of emergence are detected when there are all the ripples of ship movements -- probably because they have different 'signatures' (different frequencies, amplitudes, and duration) and are originating in different spots.

After all, hydrophones can detect the noise of a sub, and tell it apart from the noise of something being dropped into the ocean, despite all the noise of ships moving about or sea life yelling to one another.
Occasionally things get noisy enough that you can't hear a certain thing over it -- but most of the time directionality and noise signature is enough to pick out the thing you're interested in among all the other noises.

penny wrote:Huh? Wait! When ships transition to n-space there is the azure bleed of the sails and a ripple on the Alpha wall. If ships traveling along in n-space are also creating ripples along the Alpha wall, how does an FTL detector detect anything amidst the noise of ripples created by everything else? That doesn't make any sense.

Jonathan_S wrote:The azure bleed of the sails only exists if its transitioning from within a grav wave -- otherwise it'd have a wedge up. No info on whether a wedge optically flares on translating down (but the extreme gravity might directionally spray those photons so most observers wouldn't see the glow. But that's kind of irrelevant because, while very pretty, that optical bleed isn't how hyper emergence is detected.



As for how the ripples of emergence are detected when there are all the ripples of ship movements -- probably because they have different 'signatures' (different frequencies, amplitudes, and duration) and are originating in different spots.

After all, hydrophones can detect the noise of a sub, and tell it apart from the noise of something being dropped into the ocean, despite all the noise of ships moving about or sea life yelling to one another.
Occasionally things get noisy enough that you can't hear a certain thing over it -- but most of the time directionality and noise signature is enough to pick out the thing you're interested in among all the other noises.

Also, a phased array of detectors can separate the signals by direction and distance.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Huh? Wait! When ships transition to n-space there is the azure bleed of the sails and a ripple on the Alpha wall. If ships traveling along in n-space are also creating ripples along the Alpha wall, how does an FTL detector detect anything amidst the noise of ripples created by everything else? That doesn't make any sense.

The azure bleed of the sails only exists if its transitioning from within a grav wave -- otherwise it'd have a wedge up. No info on whether a wedge optically flares on translating down (but the extreme gravity might directionally spray those photons so most observers wouldn't see the glow. But that's kind of irrelevant because, while very pretty, that optical bleed isn't how hyper emergence is detected.



As for how the ripples of emergence are detected when there are all the ripples of ship movements -- probably because they have different 'signatures' (different frequencies, amplitudes, and duration) and are originating in different spots.

After all, hydrophones can detect the noise of a sub, and tell it apart from the noise of something being dropped into the ocean, despite all the noise of ships moving about or sea life yelling to one another.
Occasionally things get noisy enough that you can't hear a certain thing over it -- but most of the time directionality and noise signature is enough to pick out the thing you're interested in among all the other noises.

Actually, as I posted upstream, it makes sense that a wedge which surrounds a massive ship causes a gravitational ripple.

When very massive objects accelerate through space, they create ripples in the fabric of space-time called gravitational waves. --NASA

Anyway, thanks for the post! I had been meaning to ask what exactly causes the ripples in the HV. And I didn't know whether wedges cause a flare. Which is a moot point inside a black hole upon its local frame of reference. And the LD, surrounded by its black hole, would not be speeding through the system causing a gravitational 'wake.' It will tip toe like a typical Arachnid does. The black hole that surrounds the LD will gobble up any grav waves and light in its local frame of reference. Anything outside the LDs frame of reference is irrelevant. It reminds me of what a cowboy does when he erases his footprints in the sand.

BTW, is there a limit of the minimal amount of acceleration when exiting hyper? An LD should be able to coast in? Wait! How does a ship enter n-space? By simply shutting off the hyper generator? If so, an LD does not have to have any velocity.

penny wrote:I had been meaning to ask what exactly causes the ripples in the HV. And I didn't know whether wedges cause a flare. Which is a moot point inside a black hole upon its local frame of reference. And the LD, surrounded by its black hole, would not be speeding through the system causing a gravitational 'wake.' It will tip toe like a typical Arachnid does. The black hole that surrounds the LD will gobble up any grav waves and light in its local frame of reference. Anything outside the LDs frame of reference is irrelevant. It reminds me of what a cowboy does when he erases his footprints in the sand.

When you started, the artificial black hole was an attempt to hide the transition signal on entry to normal space, but here you seem to want it to stay around as the LD moves in normal space as a form of stealth? Why? the spider drive does not cause ripples on the Alpha wall, so it is already invisible to the main way that ships are detected and tracked. Plus we know that the stealth features of the Malign's ships are already quite good, so why add this complication?

PS: What if your artificial black hole causes ripples on the Alpha wall? I ask because things on the Alpha wall travel at sixty times the speed of light, so would not be stopped by the event horizon. Which also should mean that this will not stop the transition signal you originally worried about.

PPS: Any change from one hyper-band to another or between normal space and hyperspace is caused by activating the hyper-generator, which is usually on standby and ready for use when outside the hyperlimit.

penny wrote:Anyway, thanks for the post! I had been meaning to ask what exactly causes the ripples in the HV. And I didn't know whether wedges cause a flare. Which is a moot point inside a black hole upon its local frame of reference. And the LD, surrounded by its black hole, would not be speeding through the system causing a gravitational 'wake.' It will tip toe like a typical Arachnid does. The black hole that surrounds the LD will gobble up any grav waves and light in its local frame of reference. Anything outside the LDs frame of reference is irrelevant. It reminds me of what a cowboy does when he erases his footprints in the sand.

BTW, is there a limit of the minimal amount of acceleration when exiting hyper? An LD should be able to coast in? Wait! How does a ship enter n-space? By simply shutting off the hyper generator? If so, an LD does not have to have any velocity.

Technically we only know that certain artificial gravity sources (wedges, sails, and grav-coms) create the ripple, allowing them to be seen and tracked FTL. We don't know whether natural sources do.

My personal suspicion is that it is the change in gravity, the changing curve in spacetime, that bends the alpha wall and creates ripples. Most natural object probably don't have a fast or powerful enough change in their gravity to cause much (if any) signal. If my thought is true even a super Jupiter wouldn't cause much of an FTL signal because the curve of spacetime around it, while 'steep' isn't changing quickly.

A wedge is both powerful, and acceleration, so constantly changing the curve of local spacetime. If all that supposition is correct then creating a large black hole would cause a very powerful ripple -- as it'd create a strong and nearly instant new curve in spacetime (and if you unmade it somehome moments later that would likely cause another large signal as spacetime rapidly reverts to where it ways)


But anyway, on to your main question. Ships don't have to be accelerating at all when they transition - they don't even need to have velocity on them. The quote about the Sharks from a day to so back said they'd slowed to as close as they could to zero velocity before translating out of hyper.
Now, we're told that it is gentler and a little safer to translate into hyper while under acceleration. But there's no need to. You could be lying doggo with just your hyper generator active and translate out before your drive even warmed up and came online.

Now entering or exiting hyper causes energy bleed - you lose a bunch of your velocity crossing the barrier (exact amount differs by hyper band -- check the speed by hyper band chart for details). The books imply that a lower velocity translation makes a smaller flare -- and my assumption is that that's largely because less velocity got turned into energy that needs to be bled off. So if you're being stealthy you'd make your translation at slow as you can -- like the Sharks did. And while you'd probably have your wedge us, so you could quickly accelerate if you run into some unhappy surprise upon emergence, if you're being stealthy it'll be at about as low power as it can be (so reducing the drive's signal once you finish translating)

But if you're not trying to be especially stealthy, or you aren't waiting for a convoy scout to check the system out before the rest of the convoy emerges, you usually wouldn't waste the time to slow massively down before translating -- because letting the energy bleed do it for you saves time (even it if makes a bigger flare)

And to enter n-space you need to actively use your hyper generator to crack the alpha wall downwards. Simply turning it off does nothing. Otherwise Wayfarer wouldn't have been able to deploy shuttles and LACs in the Selker Rift in Silesia -- those all lack hyper generators. Also remember when Victor and Anton were delayed getting back from Mesa by the hyper-generator failure.

Torch of Freedom wrote:Less than an hour after they made their upward alpha translation, Andrew Artlett was completely and totally vindicated.
Mainly because they'd just made an unscheduled—and most unpleasant—downward translation.
"Congratulations, you stupid goofballs. The hyper generator is now officially defunct. We're damned lucky it lasted long enough for the failsafes to throw us back into n-space before the stabilizer went.

There were some discussions around that and as I recall (not taking the time to try to go find them) RFC said that if the failsafes detect a hyper generator is about to fail they have to make a split second decision based, mostly, on how close the hyperlog say they are to an inhabited system. If you're within, say, a month's sublight trip they'll trigger the emergency hyper translation (as happened to the Hali Sowle). But if you're far away from inhabited systems then dumping you lightyears from safe harbor would just be a slow way of killing you -- so it makes the other choice and shuts it down stranding you in hyper. You then are stuck navigating to a system that can help and hoping to catch the attention of passing traffic who is willing to carry a message to the system authorities and/or rescue service saying you need assistance as you can't exit hyper!!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I had been meaning to ask what exactly causes the ripples in the HV. And I didn't know whether wedges cause a flare. Which is a moot point inside a black hole upon its local frame of reference. And the LD, surrounded by its black hole, would not be speeding through the system causing a gravitational 'wake.' It will tip toe like a typical Arachnid does. The black hole that surrounds the LD will gobble up any grav waves and light in its local frame of reference. Anything outside the LDs frame of reference is irrelevant. It reminds me of what a cowboy does when he erases his footprints in the sand.

When you started, the artificial black hole was an attempt to hide the transition signal on entry to normal space, but here you seem to want it to stay around as the LD moves in normal space as a form of stealth? Why? the spider drive does not cause ripples on the Alpha wall, so it is already invisible to the main way that ships are detected and tracked. Plus we know that the stealth features of the Malign's ships are already quite good, so why add this complication?

I don't know how or where you got that notion. Except perhaps the statement that the LD wouldn't be speeding through space. That is regarding the fact that it would have low to no acceleration entering n-space, so no wake caused by re-entry. Besides, after leaving hyperspace the LD will no longer have access to the enormous energies needed to sustain the black hole as it does while in hyper. And, as you said, it no longer needs the black hole. The black hole is needed only to hide its emergence from hyper.

tlb wrote:PS: What if your artificial black hole causes ripples on the Alpha wall? I ask because things on the Alpha wall travel at sixty times the speed of light, so would not be stopped by the event horizon. Which also should mean that this will not stop the transition signal you originally worried about.

PPS: Any change from one hyper-band to another or between normal space and hyperspace is caused by activating the hyper-generator, which is usually on standby and ready for use when outside the hyperlimit.

That is certainly possible. Jonathan and I touched on that very point. And I had to apology to him for being too hasty. I didn't realize that he was referring to the 62x light speed.

Let me explain. Someone who is intelligent enough to create a black hole should be able to increase the effect enough to eliminate the ripple but not too much that it overcomes the counter-grav needed to prevent the ship from imploding. It would simply require a stroke of the pen by god. And in my opinion, it would be a much smaller pill to swallow than a few of the other prescriptions listed in the 'Top Five Hardest Pills to Swallow' thread. It's also logically sound. Remember, with the Grand Unified Field Theory and the Theory of Everything solved, manipulating gravity in an artificial but controlled fashion should be possible for he who conceived of it. It might have been a long and winding road to fruition, but all things are possible for he who conceives of it. If he doesn't kill himself from banging his head against the wall from its many complexities. But necessity is the mother of invention. And mothers can kiss the pain of the booboos away, then tuck you in for a good night's sleep.

I still don't see hiding the emergence as giving the LD any significant additional advantage. It would simply eliminate the need for a months long insertion. The GA will still need to develop some form of a spider-drive detector either way.

penny wrote:1. Does gravity escape a black hole?
2. Does gravity exist outside a black hole?

I don't think those are the relevant questions.

The relevant question is: Do the gravitational effects of a black hole extend further than the event horizon?

And the answer clearly is yes, because those effects are what's pulling things towards the event horizon.

The event horizon is the outer border of the "nothing can escape" range of the black hole. So any effects outside of the event horizon should be visible and detectable.

The "accretion disks" are a nice example - affected by the gravitation and spin of the black hole, but still far enough from the event horizon that light can escape, as we can see them.

So the Sharks came out of Hyperdrive WAY out from MBS linked together by just bringing the energy in hyper WAY down so they could just "slide" out of hyper and only create a very small transition signal that was picked up by the MBS sensor net. Then they used their Spider drives to ...slowly... move away from the appearance site and be far enough away from it before the Destroyers arrived to check out the signal.

How fast could/can the Sharks move in Hyper? For example, how many days to move the distance from Sol to Manticore?

How fast can a LD move in Hyper?
We have already been told that LDs are greatly restricted in how fast they can accelerate in n-space due to the lack of compensator function because they are not using impeller dives.

How fast can an LD build up the appropriate amount of energy to the system is needs to transition INTO hyper. Not having a wedge to provide any kind of shielding, it is probable that other than trusting to superior stealth (but still having to deal with possible exposure by having to expel heat into space) isn't the only real way to get out of harms way to "quietly" slip into hyper and get the hell out of wherever they are when somebody's warship comes looking for the source of whatever caught's it's tactical systems interest?
Can anyone track an LD in hyper?