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tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Gravity does NOT escape a black hole. Hence, a black hole is imploding gravity. We know it is there because we can see a big black hole in space.

Go tell that to NASA, since you know so much more than them:

NASA wrote:GRAVITY'S THE SAME.
If you replaced the Sun with a black hole of the same mass, the solar system would get a lot colder, but the planets would stay in their orbits.

From: Essential Black Hole Facts - NASA

Do you just ignore the NASA finding of a binary pair composed of a regular star and a black hole? Also occlusion is not the primary way that black holes are found.

If there is such a thing as a graviton particle then it would move at the speed of light and such particles emitted from within the event horizon would (like photons) lack the speed to escape.

But that doesn't seem to matter (maybe meaning that there are no graviton particles) because its whole mass still warps spacetime exactly like a less dense object of the same mass would (at least until you're closer to the event horizon than the surface of that notional less dense object) If it didn't warp spacetime like that, to affect the trajectory of object (aka gravity) you wouldn't get all the effect that we've observed -- like accretion disks, or slowly stealing the corona of companion stars.

penny wrote:Are you putting words in NASA's mouth? A black hole causes a huge gravitational effect, yes. The accretion disk of dust and matter is evidence of that, yes.

Your binary pair is irrelevant. There can also be a binary black hole. Still irrelevant until they collide.

How can there be a gravitational effect outside the event horizon, if all the gravity is trapped inside? How can there be a binary pair if they are not bound by gravity?

Check the reference yourself, I just quoted what NASA wrote.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Are you putting words in NASA's mouth? A black hole causes a huge gravitational effect, yes. The accretion disk of dust and matter is evidence of that, yes.

How can there be a gravitational effect outside the event horizon, if all the gravity is trapped inside?

Check the reference yourself, I just quoted what NASA wrote.

Apples and oranges. You are mashing two different things. A black hole is a massive object that bends space-time, the very fabric of space. If you take a bed sheet stretched out and held by several people and then you place a massive bowling ball in the middle of the sheet, then everything on the sheet will fall towards the ball, right? Do you think anything will fall from the bowling ball to the people?

Just because the massive black hole is a voracious greedy witch that is trying to suck more gravity and matter into it, should impress upon you that it ain't giving any up. A black hole is not prejudiced. It is an equal opportunity destroyer.

penny wrote:Apples and oranges. You are mashing two different things. A black hole is a massive object that bends space-time, the very fabric of space. If you take a bed sheet stretched out and held by several people and then you place a massive bowling ball in the middle of the sheet, then everything on the sheet will fall towards the ball, right? Do you think anything will fall from the bowling ball to the people?

Just because the massive black hole is a voracious greedy witch that is trying to suck more gravity and matter into it, should impress upon you that it ain't giving any up. A black hole is not prejudiced. It is an equal opportunity destroyer.

How is what NASA says apples to your oranges? Did you bother to check the reference? NASA has a lot to say about black holes and they do not have to reference riptides or Usain Bolt.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Apples and oranges. You are mashing two different things. A black hole is a massive object that bends space-time, the very fabric of space. If you take a bed sheet stretched out and held by several people and then you place a massive bowling ball in the middle of the sheet, then everything on the sheet will fall towards the ball, right? Do you think anything will fall from the bowling ball to the people?

Just because the massive black hole is a voracious greedy witch that is trying to suck more gravity and matter into it, should impress upon you that it ain't giving any up. A black hole is not prejudiced. It is an equal opportunity destroyer.

How is what NASA says apples to your oranges? Did you bother to check the reference? NASA has a lot to say about black holes and they do not have to reference riptides or Usain Bolt.

I wish I didn't have to reference riptides or Usain Bolt either. I envy NASA, they have a more informed audience. Pardon me for trying to get you to understand. You even deny the meaning of IMPLODING.

Enough of the silly arguments. Simply post what you say NASA says, and not what you think NASA means.

penny wrote:Enough of the silly arguments. Simply post what you say NASA says, and not what you think NASA means.

I gave you a straight quote from NASA and you thought I was lying by asking "Are you putting words in NASA's mouth?". So why not simply check the reference yourself, the gravity quote was number 8 of their essential facts on that page. The binary pair is fact number 4.

penny wrote:Apples and oranges. You are mashing two different things. A black hole is a massive object that bends space-time, the very fabric of space. If you take a bed sheet stretched out and held by several people and then you place a massive bowling ball in the middle of the sheet, then everything on the sheet will fall towards the ball, right? Do you think anything will fall from the bowling ball to the people?

Just because the massive black hole is a voracious greedy witch that is trying to suck more gravity and matter into it, should impress upon you that it ain't giving any up. A black hole is not prejudiced. It is an equal opportunity destroyer.

But that stretched out, that bent, spacetime is what we know as gravity. So, I don't understand what two things you're saying are getting mashed together?

Mass creates curvature in spacetime, curvature in spacetime imparts a force (which we call gravity) towards the mass that's bending spacetime; thus altering their velocity (and thus trajectory).

Because the bent spacetime extends beyond the event horizon why wouldn't the creation of that bent spacetime around the black hole create ripples on the alpha wall? (ripples which could be detected FTL by grav sensors) It'd certainly produce detectable changes when the lightspeed propagation of the change in spacetime reached any objects being tracked within the system.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Apples and oranges. You are mashing two different things. A black hole is a massive object that bends space-time, the very fabric of space. If you take a bed sheet stretched out and held by several people and then you place a massive bowling ball in the middle of the sheet, then everything on the sheet will fall towards the ball, right? Do you think anything will fall from the bowling ball to the people?

Just because the massive black hole is a voracious greedy witch that is trying to suck more gravity and matter into it, should impress upon you that it ain't giving any up. A black hole is not prejudiced. It is an equal opportunity destroyer.

But that stretched out, that bent, spacetime is what we know as gravity.

No it isn't. That is simply the effects of gravity.

Jonathan_S wrote:So, I don't understand what two things you're saying are getting mashed together?

The two distinctly different things under discussion that are getting mashed up are ...

1. Does gravity escape a black hole?
2. Does gravity exist outside a black hole?

Of course gravity exists outside a black hole. Because matter exists outside a black hole. All matter has gravity. And all objects of matter have a natural gravitational attraction to each other. A black hole is a massive object that has an attraction. There is observational evidence that all galaxies have a black hole at its center. Thus, there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy. Does gravity exist on the outside of our black hole? Of course, we live on a big blue ball of gravity. And one day, Earth too will fall into our own black hole. Does that mean that once Earth falls into our galaxy's black hole that it, or its crushed mass, will emerge? No.

Jonathan_S wrote:Mass creates curvature in spacetime, curvature in spacetime imparts a force (which we call gravity) towards the mass that's bending spacetime; thus altering their velocity (and thus trajectory).

Because the bent spacetime extends beyond the event horizon why wouldn't the creation of that bent spacetime around the black hole create ripples on the alpha wall? (ripples which could be detected FTL by grav sensors) It'd certainly produce detectable changes when the lightspeed propagation of the change in spacetime reached any objects being tracked within the system.

Wedges are intense bands of gravity and they do not create ripples along the Alpha wall while in n-space. Only when a wedge transitions from hyper does it create ripples on the Alpha wall. Now, because I am not an expert on the author's tech, I do not know what actually causes the ripple on the Alpha wall when a ship enters n-space.* IINM, it is the ship's mass and acceleration. The mass of the ship - and I would wager its acceleration - and it's effects thereof would be hidden/masked/impeded by a black hole. I agree the black hole would have an effect on its surroundings. But didn't even the NASA article tlb posted state that if our own Sun was a black hole our planets orbits would not be affected? Why? Frame of reference.

*Nor am I an expert on black holes, but I studied event horizons for a long long time and I have my own theories.

penny wrote:Wedges are intense bands of gravity and they do not create ripples along the Alpha wall while in n-space. Only when a wedge transitions from hyper does it create ripples on the Alpha wall.

Yes, there is a ripple on the transition. But the wedge bends the Alpha wall while the ship is in normal space. That is how the ship gets its additional power and it allows the FTL tracing of the ship as it moves about in normal space.

It is a spider drive ship that only makes a ripple on a transition and NOT (according to the author) as it moves about.

From the very article tlb posted.

Finding Black Holes

Black holes don’t emit or reflect light, making them effectively invisible to telescopes. Scientists primarily detect and study them based on how they affect their surroundings:

Black holes can be surrounded by rings of gas and dust, called accretion disks, that emit light across many wavelengths, including X-rays.

A supermassive black hole’s intense gravity can cause stars to orbit around it in a particular way. Astronomers tracked the orbits of several stars near the center of the Milky Way to prove it houses a supermassive black hole, a discovery that won the 2020 Nobel Prize.

When very massive objects accelerate through space, they create ripples in the fabric of space-time called gravitational waves. Scientists can detect some of these by the ripples’ effect on detectors.

Massive objects like black holes can bend and distort light from more distant objects. This effect, called gravitational lensing, can be used to find isolated black holes that are otherwise invisible.

Now think about a few things from tlb's post.

If our own Sun was a black hole, it would not affect the orbit of our planets!!! A black hole is simply not sending out powerful tentacles of gravity. It is pulling gravity in, not sending gravity out.

When very massive objects accelerate through space, they create ripples in the fabric of space-time called gravitational waves. An LD will ever so slowly tip-toe through the roses. The MBS is a bed of roses. And as you can see from the article, a black hole is not so easily detected. It's effects are. But even if any effects of a very short lived black hole are detected, light speed effects are not conducive to system defense. But I hardly think a short-lived black hole is going to cause any effects upon the local system. There is certainly no time for an accretion disk.