Honor Harrington's Aristocratic Style

Jonathan_S wrote:My lost posts pointed out that we, the reader, didn't discover that Alison was related to a Beowulfian medical dynasty until book 11 - we didn't even find out that the Chou (the part of her name we had known about previously) was an important family until then.

Sorry about stealing one of your main points, but I did get the attribution correct - fortunately.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:My lost posts pointed out that we, the reader, didn't discover that Alison was related to a Beowulfian medical dynasty until book 11 - we didn't even find out that the Chou (the part of her name we had known about previously) was an important family until then.

Sorry about stealing one of your main points, but I did get the attribution correct - fortunately.

No worries.

In the lost posts someone, I think it might have been you, had already said we found out later in the books. IIRC I had originally quoted that (non-Penny) post to add the exact details of which book it was in and the quoted text of what we then found out.

Now that I think about it, I could have been influenced by posts I read in the forum. When I first joined, I was excited to be a part of the forum. I produced a very feverish pace of posts. I think I made rank faster than anyone ever. So, I interacted with everyone quite a bit.

Anyway, knowing how my logical brain works, I think certain neurons fired on their own in the background. Because some things should be obvious. For instance, in the “How does Honor know so much” thread, we speculated on just that. How does she know so much? We all agree that Honor probably read everything that had a cover on it. So, my brain, trying to be a fly on the wall at the Academy when she and Michelle became best friends -- hmmmmm preeeeety –- I find it downright impossible to believe that Honor would not have known everything there is to know about her own family. All of you, would have me believe that a woman who knows everything about everything, didn't know about her own heritage? Wouldn't she have been an expert on her own Harrington clan even before Young tried to rape her? And wouldn't the responsibility of seeing to it that she knows have been ripe for her parents before she left their bosom and joined the navy?

Picture this. Here is a girl who is shy. She is at the Academy and she has no friends. All of a sudden she meets Michelle Henke, who is royalty. I don't know how they became roommates. Ordinarily, you either apply together to be roommates or you leave it up to the University. With someone like Michelle, royalty – fifth in line of secession then? – she would not have left her choice of roommates up to chance, out of safety and security. (Frankly I am surprised she didn't have a private room.) So, how they ended up with each other as roommates is a mystery? Either way, to become best friends after the fact, requires two people who ultimately bond. Bonding happens over an important event, a disaster, a shared catastrophe, an intimate moment yada yada yada. So, my logical brain parses and imagines both of them opening up to each other after bonding. Trust. Best friends trust each other. They just do.

I do remember the lost passage someone posted where Honor opened up to Beth about her heritage. And I recall Beth being shocked. I also recall my own reaction of shock that Beth didn't know. Because in my head I had no doubts that Michelle would have known. I'd still bet good money that Michelle knew.

My mind processed all of the above in the background. I know how my logical brain with its vivid imagination works.

At any rate, Honor should have thrown it in Young's face. I know I know I know, a Commoner’s heritage can in no way be as important as a Lord's. Mostly. But as I say, the Chou family is no ordinary family of Commoners. And their accomplishments outshine anything most Lords have ever done. OR WILL DO! Their accomplishments outshine most anything any other person has done. Their accomplishments certainly impacted the whole of humanity! Young's only accomplishment was the luck of the draw of enjoying a lofty birth.

penny wrote:At any rate, Honor should have thrown it in Young's face. I know I know I know, a Commoner’s heritage can in no way be as important as a Lord's. Mostly. But as I say, the Chou family is no ordinary family of Commoners. And their accomplishments outshine anything most Lords have ever done. OR WILL DO! Their accomplishments outshine most anything any other person has done. Their accomplishments certainly impacted the whole of humanity! Young's only accomplishment was the luck of the draw of enjoying a lofty birth.

Pavel Young is a sociopathic narcissist and the luck of the draw is sufficient for him to feel superior to everyone outside his family. Honor beating him up did more to disrupt his self worth, than anything she could have possibly said to him.

Honor's mother could have tried to do all that you wanted (without effect), except perhaps beat up Pavel Young. But to demand that Honor do it would require that she had already matured in terms of self confidence and social ability. You want the Honor of the Academy to be the same as the Honor in At All Costs, without any of that growth process that the author chose to put in the stories.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:At any rate, Honor should have thrown it in Young's face. I know I know I know, a Commoner’s heritage can in no way be as important as a Lord's. Mostly. But as I say, the Chou family is no ordinary family of Commoners. And their accomplishments outshine anything most Lords have ever done. OR WILL DO! Their accomplishments outshine most anything any other person has done. Their accomplishments certainly impacted the whole of humanity! Young's only accomplishment was the luck of the draw of enjoying a lofty birth.

Pavel Young is a sociopathic narcissist and the luck of the draw is sufficient for him to feel superior to everyone outside his family. Honor beating him up did more to disrupt his self worth, than anything she could have possibly said to him.

Honor's mother could have tried to do all that you wanted (without effect), except perhaps beat up Pavel Young. But to demand that Honor do it would require that she had already matured in terms of self confidence and social ability. You want the Honor of the Academy to be the same as the Honor in At All Costs, without any of that growth process that the author chose to put in the stories.

No.

I simply said that I found myself always yearning that she'd throw it in his face. No more. No less. Which didn't require any growth process, maturity or self confidence. What I yearned for only required the one thing that Honor was born with tons of! ANGER!!!

penny wrote:I simply said that I found myself always yearning that she'd throw it in his face. No more. No less. Which didn't require any growth process, maturity or self confidence. What I yearned for only required the one thing that Honor was born with tons of! ANGER!!!

Honor's anger seems to arise more when bad things happen to people for whom she cares, not as much for things done just to her. So we are at an impasse, as usual; because I am convinced it is clear that the thing for which you yearn cannot happen with the Honor of the Academy. If it could have happened, then the stories would have gone off in an entirely different direction.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I simply said that I found myself always yearning that she'd throw it in his face. No more. No less. Which didn't require any growth process, maturity or self confidence. What I yearned for only required the one thing that Honor was born with tons of! ANGER!!!

Honor's anger seems to arise more when bad things happen to people for whom she cares, not as much for things done just to her. So we are at an impasse, as usual; because I am convinced it is clear that the thing for which you yearn cannot happen with the Honor of the Academy. If it could have happened, then the stories would have gone off in an entirely different direction.

Impasses are normal. They are the result of conversation. If accompanied by respect, even welcome. I don't seek agreement. I seek truth.

But Honor had surely matured through the series. But I have been known to challenge my own stance. And now that I think of it, how many times would Honor have actually had to confront Young face to face?

On Basilisk Station. And when she challenged him. When she challenged him surely would have been a good time to give him the tongue lashing he wanted. And deserved.

Was there another opportunity I have forgotten?

penny wrote:On Basilisk Station.

That would have been a bad time to say anything, since he was her superior officer. The most she could do was to don her white beret before it was appropriate.

PS: She did give a tongue lashing when she challenged him, from Field of Dishonor:

Chapter 30 wrote:The bitch. The puking, baseborn bitch! Who the hell did she think she was to hound him this way?! Why, his family could have bought and sold hers a dozen times over before she started rolling in her fucking prize money! She was nothing, just one more yeoman slut, and a deeply hidden part of him hated her most of all for the contempt he'd seen in her eyes the first day they ever met. She'd been a fuzzy-haired, homely, stupid commoner, yet she'd dared to look at him without awe, without fear. With contempt.

-- skip --

"My Lords and Ladies, there is among you a man who has conspired at murder rather than face his enemies himself. A would-be rapist, a coward, and a man who hired a paid duelist to kill another. A man who sent armed thugs into a public restaurant only two days ago to murder someone else and failed in his purpose by the narrowest margin." The spell was beginning to fray. Peers began to rise, their voices starting to sound in protest, but her soprano cut through the stir like a knife, and her eyes were fixed on Pavel Young.

"My Lords and Ladies, I accuse Pavel Young, Earl North Hollow, of murder and attempted murder. I accuse him of the callous and unforgivable abuse of power, of cowardice in the face of the enemy, of attempted rape, and of being unfit not simply for the high office he holds but for life itself. I call him coward and scum, beneath the contempt of honest and upright subjects of this Kingdom, whose honor is profaned by his mere presence among them, and I challenge him, before you all, to meet me upon the field of honor, there to pay once and for all for his acts!"

penny wrote:But I never quite understood her aversion to titles. I would tend to think she would be very accustomed to that. Honor may be a Commoner, as Pavel Young was so quick to point out, but she isn't a base-born bitch. Honor is the daughter of Allison Carmena Elena Inéz Regina Benton-Ramirez y Chou Harrington. A name that exudes entitlement, accomplishment, inheritance, and respect.!!

Its members were responsible for developing the Prolong Treatment in conjunction with the Chou family, and were also involved in the opposition to genetic slavery, helping negotiate agreements such as the Cherwell Convention.

George Benton – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth to battle the hideous consequences of the bioweapons used in Earth's Final War

Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth with George Benton

Chyang Benton-Ramirez – Chairman and CEO of the Planetary Board of Directors in 1922 PD
Caspar Benton-Ramirez y Chou - Vice President of the ASL

It's missing one more, equally important, and far more recent: Dr. Jennifer Benton-Ramirez y Chou, inventor of the prolong, and Alison's mother. (We didn't know her first name until What Price Victory?)

But as to why Honor was averse to titles and using them: her upbringing. Unlike Pavel, she was raised to believe she was no better than anyone else by virtue of her birth and only her actions counted. She would never use her heritage or, later, titles to lord over anyone else, unless she must in order to get the job done.

We do hear her inner thoughts at a particular event she attended in Manticore and realising that her title as Steadholder put her above everyone in that room except the Queen and the three Grand Dukes in the Kingdom, one of which was very friendly to her. In fact, this is the basically the entirety of the Wiki article on the Grand Duchy of Manticore. And what is she thinking in that event? Not about how she could use that to lord over anyone, but how those who would attempt such things had failed to realise how the tables had turned if they attempted to.

The Harringtons had been proud yeomen for generations, going back to at least Stephanie Harrington herself, who could not refuse a title but did refuse to accept it hereditarily. Since she was a first-generation immigrant, this may have been part of her upbringing in Meyerdahl, a League system that was definitely a Republic. Other Harringtons in the intervening years may have done great feats (we don't know), but if so they probably also refused any titles and thus Honor initially attempted to refuse them too. But then she ran afoul of the Winton stubbornness...

On her mother's side, the "medical dynasty" is still very much a meritocratic one. Alison was attending university when she met Alfred, not just resting on her family's laurels. Her twin brother was already in the BSC. Moreover, Alison went against her mother's wishes to set up practice on Sphinx and live without the recognition of the family name, something that caused a rift between those two until Honor was born ("you won your first battle before you could walk" - Alfred Harrington). This would explain how Klaus Hauptman did not know of her past, but in any case it would have hardly mattered even if he had known.

So Honor did know of her mother's "dynasty" but didn't use it or lean on it. And it would have hardly mattered in her chosen career path anyway.

penny wrote:But I never quite understood her aversion to titles. I would tend to think she would be very accustomed to that. Honor may be a Commoner, as Pavel Young was so quick to point out, but she isn't a base-born bitch. Honor is the daughter of Allison Carmena Elena Inéz Regina Benton-Ramirez y Chou Harrington. A name that exudes entitlement, accomplishment, inheritance, and respect!!

The Benton-Ramirez family was one of Beowulf's "medical dynasties". Its members were responsible for developing the Prolong Treatment in conjunction with the Chou family, and were also involved in the opposition to genetic slavery, helping negotiate agreements such as the Cherwell Convention.

George Benton – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth to battle the hideous consequences of the bioweapons used in Earth's Final War

Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth with George Benton

Chyang Benton-Ramirez – Chairman and CEO of the Planetary Board of Directors in 1922 PD

Caspar Benton-Ramirez y Chou - Vice President of the ASL

Thinksmarkedly wrote:It's missing one more, equally important, and far more recent: Dr. Jennifer Benton-Ramirez y Chou, inventor of the prolong, and Alison's mother. (We didn't know her first name until What Price Victory?)

But as to why Honor was averse to titles and using them: her upbringing. Unlike Pavel, she was raised to believe she was no better than anyone else by virtue of her birth and only her actions counted. She would never use her heritage or, later, titles to lord over anyone else, unless she must in order to get the job done.

We do hear her inner thoughts at a particular event she attended in Manticore and realising that her title as Steadholder put her above everyone in that room except the Queen and the three Grand Dukes in the Kingdom, one of which was very friendly to her. In fact, this is the basically the entirety of the Wiki article on the Grand Duchy of Manticore. And what is she thinking in that event? Not about how she could use that to lord over anyone, but how those who would attempt such things had failed to realise how the tables had turned if they attempted to.

The Harringtons had been proud yeomen for generations, going back to at least Stephanie Harrington herself, who could not refuse a title but did refuse to accept it hereditarily. Since she was a first-generation immigrant, this may have been part of her upbringing in Meyerdahl, a League system that was definitely a Republic. Other Harringtons in the intervening years may have done great feats (we don't know), but if so they probably also refused any titles and thus Honor initially attempted to refuse them too. But then she ran afoul of the Winton stubbornness...

On her mother's side, the "medical dynasty" is still very much a meritocratic one. Alison was attending university when she met Alfred, not just resting on her family's laurels. Her twin brother was already in the BSC. Moreover, Alison went against her mother's wishes to set up practice on Sphinx and live without the recognition of the family name, something that caused a rift between those two until Honor was born ("you won your first battle before you could walk" - Alfred Harrington). This would explain how Klaus Hauptman did not know of her past, but in any case it would have hardly mattered even if he had known.

So Honor did know of her mother's "dynasty" but didn't use it or lean on it. And it would have hardly mattered in her chosen career path anyway.

Thanks. There are others as well that I did not list. I also appreciate your stance. You have a point. It also reminded me of something I was going to point out before the site went down.

How can someone with an aversion to titles join the navy? Rank is a title. And she picked up rank like a kid picks up candy off the floor. Somebody should have told her. "Honor, if you dislike titles, you never should have joined the navy."

As a matter of fact, she relied on her title when she was on Hades. Someone had to push her, but on Hades she donned her Grayson uniform because it outranked, Stiles was it?

Somebody also should have told her, "Honor, you are in the navy and you don't like titles? You can't have your cake and eat it too."