Honor Harrington's Aristocratic Style

The Duchess' Style

Honor has always been portrayed as a very humble unpretentious woman, slightly embarrassed by all the awards and praise heaped upon her. As a result, I've always been frustrated by the title conventions or "styles",she's been granted or adopted. Countess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington,Duchess Harrington Harrington Steading, initially 2 Harrington Houses. You can just see her turning red with consternation.
Much of this I assume was done to keep the naming conventions simple, and, an American authors ignorance of British title conventions and practices. While some aristocratic titles and family names as one and the same, many, if not most, are not. Honor doesn't seem the type to have emblazoned her name everywhere.
Her Duchy is on Sphinx, in an area that, according to Elizabeth II, " is much like your Copperwalls". Furthermore, given the tragedy Yawata Crossing's destruction at the hands of the Alignment either the Duchess of Copperwall, or Yawata, would seem a more appropriate style retcon to me.
British subjects bestowed with peerages, during the 19th and early 20th centuries took great note of how they styled themselves.Some took their titles from hometowns and family estates :Baron Fisher of Kivalstone. Others styled themselves after accomplishment in Battle: Kitchener of Khatoum. I think Honor would have taken these types of things into account. If for no other reason than to, Honor, her dead, family as well as colleagues.

gregorykbrown wrote:The Duchess' Style

Honor has always been portrayed as a very humble unpretentious woman, slightly embarrassed by all the awards and praise heaped upon her. As a result, I've always been frustrated by the title conventions or "styles",she's been granted or adopted. Countess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington,Duchess Harrington Harrington Steading, initially 2 Harrington Houses. You can just see her turning red with consternation.
Much of this I assume was done to keep the naming conventions simple, and, an American authors ignorance of British title conventions and practices. While some aristocratic titles and family names as one and the same, many, if not most, are not. Honor doesn't seem the type to have emblazoned her name everywhere.
Her Duchy is on Sphinx, in an area that, according to Elizabeth II, " is much like your Copperwalls". Furthermore, given the tragedy Yawata Crossing's destruction at the hands of the Alignment either the Duchess of Copperwall, or Yawata, would seem a more appropriate style retcon to me.
British subjects bestowed with peerages, during the 19th and early 20th centuries took great note of how they styled themselves.Some took their titles from hometowns and family estates :Baron Fisher of Kivalstone. Others styled themselves after accomplishment in Battle: Kitchener of Khatoum. I think Honor would have taken these types of things into account. If for no other reason than to, Honor, her dead, family as well as colleagues.

I won't argue about her other titles, but the custom on Grayson seems to be to name the steading after the family name of the steadholder, which also becomes the name of the steading's capitol. She was never given the option to change either one. I assume the author does have some knowledge of "British title conventions and practices", because there is considerable variance among the titles used by other personages in Manticore.

gregorykbrown wrote:The Duchess' Style

Honor has always been portrayed as a very humble unpretentious woman, slightly embarrassed by all the awards and praise heaped upon her. As a result, I've always been frustrated by the title conventions or "styles",she's been granted or adopted. Countess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington,Duchess Harrington Harrington Steading, initially 2 Harrington Houses. You can just see her turning red with consternation.
Much of this I assume was done to keep the naming conventions simple, and, an American authors ignorance of British title conventions and practices. While some aristocratic titles and family names as one and the same, many, if not most, are not. Honor doesn't seem the type to have emblazoned her name everywhere.
Her Duchy is on Sphinx, in an area that, according to Elizabeth II, " is much like your Copperwalls". Furthermore, given the tragedy Yawata Crossing's destruction at the hands of the Alignment either the Duchess of Copperwall, or Yawata, would seem a more appropriate style retcon to me.
British subjects bestowed with peerages, during the 19th and early 20th centuries took great note of how they styled themselves.Some took their titles from hometowns and family estates :Baron Fisher of Kivalstone. Others styled themselves after accomplishment in Battle: Kitchener of Khatoum. I think Honor would have taken these types of things into account. If for no other reason than to, Honor, her dead, family as well as colleagues.

Although the Manticoran system is clearly inspired by the British one, Manticore is not the United Kingdom, and thus, the Rules are not the same.

gregorykbrown wrote:The Duchess' Style

Honor has always been portrayed as a very humble unpretentious woman, slightly embarrassed by all the awards and praise heaped upon her. As a result, I've always been frustrated by the title conventions or "styles",she's been granted or adopted. Countess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington,Duchess Harrington Harrington Steading, initially 2 Harrington Houses. You can just see her turning red with consternation.
Much of this I assume was done to keep the naming conventions simple, and, an American authors ignorance of British title conventions and practices. While some aristocratic titles and family names as one and the same, many, if not most, are not. Honor doesn't seem the type to have emblazoned her name everywhere.
Her Duchy is on Sphinx, in an area that, according to Elizabeth II, " is much like your Copperwalls". Furthermore, given the tragedy Yawata Crossing's destruction at the hands of the Alignment either the Duchess of Copperwall, or Yawata, would seem a more appropriate style retcon to me.
British subjects bestowed with peerages, during the 19th and early 20th centuries took great note of how they styled themselves. Some took their titles from hometowns and family estates :Baron Fisher of Kivalstone. Others styled themselves after accomplishment in Battle: Kitchener of Khatoum. I think Honor would have taken these types of things into account. If for no other reason than to, Honor, her dead, family as well as colleagues.

markusschaber wrote:Although the Manticoran system is clearly inspired by the British one, Manticore is not the United Kingdom, and thus, the Rules are not the same.

I wonder whether Honor's friends (including the Queen) are having their own joke on her, knowing that she is a "a very humble unpretentious woman, slightly embarrassed by all the awards and praise heaped upon her". Since it is not clear that she was allowed a choice in the names of the honors given by the Queen.

tlb wrote:I won't argue about her other titles, but the custom on Grayson seems to be to name the steading after the family name of the steadholder, which also becomes the name of the steading's capitol. She was never given the option to change either one. I assume the author does have some knowledge of "British title conventions and practices", because there is considerable variance among the titles used by other personages in Manticore.

We do know she tried to get the name of GNS Honor Harrington and thus the class name changed and we know the run-around the Graysons put her through to deny her that. We also know she asked the statue of her be removed from the Grayson capital and they also denied her.

She may have asked to change the name of the steading or the earldom when they were first created. Maybe for the earldom, Queen Elizabeth might have been amenable to changing, but I really don't think the Protector would have considered changing the Steading name, especially not so soon after the events of HotQ.

We do know that in the Manticore aristocracy, they aren't usually given the person's surname as the title of nobility. No one but Honor has that in Manticore; see also Megan Petersen, who was created Baroness Arngrim (the name of her ship, not her surname), for very similar actions defending an allied nation. So my guess is that Queen Elizabeth broke with tradition in Honor's case because she probably arrived home with her Steadholder title.

PS: We do know the Steading names may not match the ruling family's surname, as in the case of Abigail Hearns, who is Miss Owens. What this probably means is that the Steading was created to a person whose name was Owens, but the hereditary line probably failed and it was then passed on to the the Hearns.

Interesting thread. And it allows me to get something off my chest. I am still having a hard time coming to terms with what I object about it, so my objections may sound convoluted for a reason.

I do not understand, wait – I am already starting out wrongly – I do understand why Honor resisted praise and accolades. Her motives were always pure and innocent. What Honor does she does out of pure unadulterated love for Queen, Country, family, friends, loved ones and crew. She isn't seeking the spotlight, nor is she seeking the ego massaging boost from having smoke blown up her arse. So I can understand her not wanting materialistic rewards like property, gold and trinkets heaped upon her. And I am embarrassed for her when I think of that statue on Grayson. Those are superficial rewards bestowed upon her for doing what she feels is her duty. Even though it is not meant in that way, the rewards somewhat tainted the accomplishments – if one can understand that – in the mind of someone like Honor. The knowledge that her beloved Star Kingdom is still breathing is her reward. Followed by a rare unfretful night of sleep.

But I never quite understood her aversion to titles. I would tend to think she would be very accustomed to that. Honor may be a Commoner, as Pavel Young was so quick to point out, but she isn't a base-born bitch. Honor is the daughter of Allison Carmena Elena Inéz Regina Benton-Ramirez y Chou Harrington. A name that exudes entitlement, accomplishment, inheritance, and respect.

Even the drunken Wiki realize that Honor was born into The Benton-Ramirez family. One of Beowulf's "medical dynasties" !!!

Its members were responsible for developing the Prolong Treatment in conjunction with the Chou family, and were also involved in the opposition to genetic slavery, helping negotiate agreements such as the Cherwell Convention.

George Benton – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth to battle the hideous consequences of the bioweapons used in Earth's Final War

Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano – one of the founders of the family, led teams of Beowulf geneticists to Old Earth with George Benton

Chyang Benton-Ramirez – Chairman and CEO of the Planetary Board of Directors in 1922 PD
Caspar Benton-Ramirez y Chou - Vice President of the ASL

I always wanted her to throw that back into Young's face. But that just isn't who Honor Harrington is. But just once I wish she'd pipe up at Young. “Don't you know who my mother is and the family I was born into? What did you, your family or that slimy rat bastard of a father of yours ever do for humanity?”

Anyhoot, she shouldn't have been so uncomfortable with titles.

Rant over.


Note: The site crashed, I suppose. I replaced as many posts in another thread as I could. I did not back up the posts in this thread. So, I can only replace my own posts. If all of you have copies of your own posts ...


The site appears to be working much better.




.

You cannot have "always wanted her to throw that back into Young's face", if you have been reading the books in order. The Honor of the Queen introduces her mother as Dr. Allison Chou Harrington and lets us know that she is from Beowulf, but nothing more. Honor Among Enemies let us know that Uncle Jacques introduced her to chemical fired handguns, but nothing more. It was not until In Enemy Hands that we learn that her mother comes from a line of physicians. It is not until At All Costs that we learn she comes from one of the first families of Beowulf and has a dynastic name: my full family name is Benton-Ramirez y Chou. As far as the early books go, Honor's parents are just yeoman doctors, who can be bullied by Klaus Hauptman; while she has grown up shy and thinking that she was ugly compared to her mother. This is how the author wants us to see her in those early stories, from HotQ:

Chapter 1 wrote:A rather proprietary smile touched Admiral of the Green Raoul Courvosier’s mouth as he watched Captain Harrington mix confidently with her guests and remembered the gangling midshipman, all knees and elbows and sharp, angular face, he’d first met sixteen Manticoran years—over twenty-seven T-years—ago. She really had been a piece of work, he reflected affectionately. Absolutely dedicated, shy to the point of speechlessness and determined not to show it, terrified of math courses, and one of the most brilliant intuitive shiphandlers and tacticians he’d ever met. She’d also been one of the most frustrating. All that promise and potential, and she’d near as nothing flunked out on him before he could convince her to use that same intuition on her math tests! But once she’d gotten her feet under her, nothing could stop her.

PS: The part about descending from a dynasty in Beowulf was pointed out by Jonathan_S (I believe).

PPS: This is a reconstruction of a lost post with material about ancestry added from another, I hope I have that right.

That is very interesting tlb! I am muttering to myself “but that can't be.” Because I am certain that I always felt that way. I certainly didn't – let me change that to probably didn't – feel that way while reading OBS. But I certainly feel as if I have always felt that way all through the rest of the series. So within minutes of reading this post I began to try to find out how that could be. Because not only is it true in my frame of reference that I always wanted Honor to throw that in his face, it is also true when I say that I always assumed that Honor's exalted heritage probably had a lot to do with Michelle Henke becoming best friends with her at the Academy. But barring you being incorrect yourself about when I could have been influenced, this enquiring mind wants to know why I feel that way. Because I do, and the feelings are strong.

Let me establish a few facts. I absolutely read all of the mainline books in publication order. And I am sure you recall my constant bragging and pride of beginning the series with OBS!. Eat your heart out people! But I do admit to slipping several of the anthologies in in-between those reads. I am not sure when I played with those stray cats. But it was after being steered towards them by people in this very forum after I asked questions. But let me try to explain what I think has happened.

To make a long story short, it had to be complete and utter scene bleed, as I oftentimes have to check timelines anyway. But I realize that it is probably more than that for me …

I didn't get sucked into this black hole until 2014. That is when I first discovered the forum by accident and I immediately joined the forum as cthia. By that time I had already read the first three books or so and I was off to a voracious pace. I probably consumed the entire set of mainline books in a matter of a few months. Crying and fretting all along the way. The HV sucked me in like an insatiable black hole and I am still here. One of the advantages of beginning a series (books or TV) long after they have become popular is you get to binge on them, one after the other after the other after the other, non stop without getting to take a breath in-between. Especially TV series.

The advantage of that is obvious of course, immediate gratification without having to endure the excruciating wait for the author to finish banging on his Remington for the next book to hit the shelves. One of the disadvantages of it is what has happened here. Scene bleed because the electric circuits (books) are placed too closely together on the circuit board.

As I say, I read all the mainline books in order, OBS first. But I was influenced to detour and read the anthologies. So I ordered the anthologies from the local bookstore along with many copies of each of the mainline books to send to my friends in Romania. I read several of the anthologies since I had them, and since the forum was recommending them. Dunno if that is where I could have been influenced, but there you have it.

But I think my logical brain – along with having been tasked with vacuuming and digesting the entire series in a matter of months – realized, subconsciously, that (even if it is true that I couldn't have known), Honor surely would have known.

You also insisted that she still should have been proud of her ancestry (even perhaps if she did not have full appreciation of the family position in Beowulf) and should have thrown that in Pavel's face. I consider that incompatible with the personality of a shy and socially awkward young girl as described by the author. More importantly, I believe that Pavel Young, as a self centered young Lord and master of creation, would sneer at her family in the following way:

The true aristocrat knows that the worth of a noble name is (non-linearly) proportional to the number of generations that you must count before you find someone who dirtied their hands with trade. Tradespeople are expected to produce things for their betters. Why get excited about a woman from a good family who goes away and marries someone from beneath her station? That is scarcely better than her running away with the chauffeur. Before Honor received her title, what had the Harringtons done in Manticore to impress the upper crust of the Conservative Association?

PS: Apologies if I am missing addition back and forth that you might consider important. If there is any such, it has slipped my mind.

My lost posts pointed out that we, the reader, didn't discover that Alison was related to a Beowulfian medical dynasty until book 11 - we didn't even find out that the Chou (the part of her name we had known about previously) was an important family until then.

At All Costs wrote:"Because my full family name is Benton-Ramirez y Chou," Allison said, and Emily's eyes widened.
Of all the medical "dynasties" of Beowulf, acknowledged throughout explored space as the preeminent queen of the life-sciences, the Benton-Ramirez and Chou families stood at the very pinnacle. They were Beowulf, with a multigenerational commitment to the field of genetic medicine which stretched back to well before Old Earth's Final War. George Benton and Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano had actually led the Beowulf teams to Old Earth to battle the hideous consequences of the Final War's bioweapons, and Chou Keng-ju had led the bioethics fight against Leonard Detweiler and the other "progressive eugenics" advocates six centuries ago. Among the many jewels in the crown of their families' achievements since was a leading role in the development of the prolong process itself.

I checked and that was the first reference to Benton anywhere in the books; and previous referenses to Ramirez were mostly to the Marine Thomas Ramirez from Saint Martin (nothing about either name being associated with Beowulf or medical research)

And the fact that Emily, who was very well connected in Manticoran nobility and society was unaware of Alison's family connections leads me to believe that it was not generally known in Manticore.


I further speculated that the fact that it wasn't brought up until then may have meant that it wasn't much discussed in the Harrington household -- and certainly wasn't made a big deal of. Honor likely didn't think of it as any significant part of her identity.

And Penny had suggested that the Beowulfian connection might have been why Michelle befriended Honor -- which I strongly doubt. (And if Emily didn't know, Michelle may not have known either) I find it much more likely that proximity as (randomly) assigned academy roommates was the basis of that friendship.