Spoilers - Toll of Honor

tlb wrote:Anyway, I doubt that Anton had ever published that he was looking for information on either Elaine or Georgia; so I doubt that was why the SLN knew he was interested.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That was my original thought, but the quote from CoS says Roszak knew he was after something.

Please, point that out since he was on a diplomatic mission and not a fishing expedition. The point I remember (and found) was that Roszak's people knew "We might be able to do it with the Komandorski tidbit, Sir, yes.". However that can be taken to mean that Roszak knew it leads to Georgia and just requires knowledge of the political situation in Manticore.

tlb wrote:Please, point that out since he was on a diplomatic mission and not a fishing expedition. The point I remember (and found) was that Roszak's people knew "We might be able to do it with the Komandorski tidbit, Sir, yes.". However that can be taken to mean that Roszak knew it leads to Georgia and just requires knowledge of the political situation in Manticore.

Sorry, poor phrasing. I didn't mean that Zilwicki had gone to Erewhon with the fishing expedition in mind. He was indeed in the diplomatic mission.

I meant that he had let it be known some time prior (possibly years) that he was after this information. So when Roszak needed to get Zilwicki out of the way, he used that tidbit.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I meant that he had let it be known some time prior (possibly years) that he was after this information. So when Roszak needed to get Zilwicki out of the way, he used that tidbit.

tlb wrote:However that can be taken to mean that Roszak knew it leads to Georgia and just requires knowledge of the political situation in Manticore.

Sorry about being repetitive, but there is no evidence for Anton making such a statement. All that is necessary is that Roszak knows the political situation (and of course there is no evidence for that either).

So I think we should let this drop, unless Toll of Honor or a later book makes things clear.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:On a completely different item in _Toll of Honor_, there is a scene where Pavel Young and Georgia are discussing her being outed to the Audubon Ballroom (in _Field of Dishonor_, only her previous identity as Elaine Komandorski was mentioned). I view this to be incompatible to chapter 50 of _War of Honor_ where Anton Zilwicki and Catherine Montaigne explained to her why she should accept their "generous" offer.

markusschaber wrote:Dimitri Young knew her secret. It's been in the files. We don't know how and where he acquired that knowledge.

Anton and Catherine don't know whether or how much of her secret is known to the Youngs.

I don't see where exactly that is incompatible.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Dimitri knew about Elaine. But, I find it rather difficult to see how Dimitri Young could have back tracked Elaine to the Maya sector. I also find it difficult to reconcile Georgia's shock when Anton revealed that part of her back history (if Dimitri had done it, then it wouldn't be such a surprise for Anton to repeat).

Having now read Toll of Honor; I understand that Pavel is threatening Georgia with revealing the secrets in the files (including to the Audubon Ballroom), if she does not obey him. She falsely believed that Dimitri had erased the information when she proved to be so useful. However after Pavel's death, she does delete all of her information from the database. There is nothing incompatible with being shocked that someone else has dug up that dirt after feeling safe for so long.

We may never know how Dimitri found about the origins of Elaine Komandorski.

When will the game warden declare spoiler season is over?

penny wrote:When will the game warden declare spoiler season is over?

I thought it was longer, but the pinned Rules post says 1 month after initial paper publication

Duckk - Forum Rules & Information wrote:- For specific content on a book that has yet to be released, or for a book that has been released in paper format (either hardcover or softcover, whichever is first) for less than a month, all discussion topics shall have in the topic title "SPOILERS" somewhere in it.

So, apparently, spoiler season ended a couple weeks ago.

(That said, there's no real reason to rename this thread - or to cease using it. We're just now free to also refer to, or quote, ToH text in other threads without specific spoilers warnings.)

I never understood Janacek. How can he have made First Lord of the Admiralty and not care about the future of the Star Kingdom by allowing petty history with Hamish and other small matters like Young impede his judgment?

The fact that he committed suicide after he came to terms with his incompetence might seem to suggest that he loved his Star Kingdom. Unless, of course it was simply the embarrassment alone that drove his suicide.

But he served as Second Space Lord Bethany Havinghurst’s Deputy chief of staff for Intelligence, so says the Wiki.

At any rate, since Janacek was not a stranger to ONI and intelligence, is it conceivable that he could be that wrong about Manticore's tech advantage, or did he simply not care that he was shooting the SK in the foot?

penny wrote:I never understood Janacek. How can he have made First Lord of the Admiralty and not care about the future of the Star Kingdom by allowing petty history with Hamish and other small matters like Young impede his judgment?

In his mind, that's not what he was doing.

Janacek didn't think a war with Haven was likely. That was a firmly held belief going all the way back to when he was just a Commander, as seen in House of Steel. He thought if anything was going to provoke Haven into attacking was the military build up that Manticore had undergone or any aggressive actions like annexing Basilisk or signing a treaty for an advance base with Grayson. He thought that if Manticore stayed irrelevant to Haven, then no war would come.

At least not in the foreseeable future. He may have seen that Manticore technology was keeping an edge over Haven's and increasingly so, so postponing the war as much as possible would be a good idea for when it eventually came. He would have been right: if the war had come a decade later, Manticore would have had several squadrons more of SDs and DNs (though probably not pod-laying ones), would have had CLACs and LACs. It might not have been as easy as Buttercup, but it would have been much easier than it was in 1905. Plus, one assumes that in this scenario, Haven attacked directly and there was no way the House of Lords could withhold the declaration of war.

But that's giving Janacek too much credit. I don't think he thought what I wrote in the previous paragraph. He probably thought it wasn't going to happen for a long time, that diplomacy would succeed in turning the Havenites away, and it would be Someone Else's Problem in the long run.

As for his beef with White Haven, he probably simply didn't think Hamish was that good, so benching White Haven would be no problem. He couldn't conceive of someone who wasn't leaps and bounds a better tactician and strategist than himself. Therefore, if Hamish disagreed with him, then by construction Hamish was wrong. This means, in his mind, he's not hurting the Kingdom by moving White Haven away, but in fact helping it.

And when he did eventually bench White Haven, during the High Ridge Government, they didn't actually need White Haven to win the war. I'm sure Santino could have followed the checklist all the way to Nouveau Paris at that point in time.

The fact that he committed suicide after he came to terms with his incompetence might seem to suggest that he loved his Star Kingdom. Unless, of course it was simply the embarrassment alone that drove his suicide.

I read as the latter case. Plus, it was shown that his Second Lord was actually hiding information that would have changed the decisions, in particular the reports that would lead to existence of the SD(P) and CLAC ship types in the RHN's order of battle. All of that happened under his watch: he selected Francis Jurgensen to head the RMN intelligence services, after all. At this point, there was also talk about bringing Jurgensen and High Ridge up on criminal charges, so Janacek would probably see the writing on the wall and choose the easy way out. He'd know the Conservative Association couldn't help him get out of it.

At any rate, since Janacek was not a stranger to ONI and intelligence, is it conceivable that he could be that wrong about Manticore's tech advantage, or did he simply not care that he was shooting the SK in the foot?

As I said, that's the wrong question to ask because the answer is "neither." He did never see his actions as shooting the SKM in the foot.

Aside from some very few characters, like during King Roger's assassination or like Elaine Descroix, the majority of people aren't not double-agents, not even unknowingly so. Neither High Ridge, nor Janacek, nor Countess New Kiev, nor Jurgensen did anything that they did with the intent to harm the Kingdom. They were all (in hindsight) extremely ill-advised, and some of them knew that some of what they were doing was so at the time (Jurgensen in particular). But between their corruption and their world (or Galaxy) view, they thought that what they were doing was the best.

In my opinion, that makes for a good story, when the villains aren't just out there for villainy and dastardly plots, but have well-reasoned (if faulty) thinking. In ToH, we do have the point of view of that reporter who was in the Conservative Association's pocket: at no point is he thinking he's doing harm, quite to the contrary.

Janacek sees the whole Haven situation very differently that the majority of the RMN and he is influence by High Ridge etc. Their universe views are more centered by their own positions-both past, present and anticipated future- than by what Haven's history with the acquisition of its empire says about what they are doing and why. And it truly is an empire built largely by the acquisition of other developed systems to use their wealth and resources to try and support the long term government of Haven.

Too much pressure on him to support those like High Ridge since to actively work to prosecute the war and untie the government's hands and funding what the RMN needs to do it's job would scream "I WAS WRONG and an IDIOT" if the RMN drove back the RHN and did things like free San Martin and take back control of the Trevor's Star terminus (remove it from Haven's sphere of influence).

You have to wonder how he and the various allied political parties he supports think that Haven is somehow stop what they have been trying to do to Manticore after they clearly attack first.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I never understood Janacek. How can he have made First Lord of the Admiralty and not care about the future of the Star Kingdom by allowing petty history with Hamish and other small matters like Young impede his judgment?

In his mind, that's not what he was doing.

Janacek didn't think a war with Haven was likely. That was a firmly held belief going all the way back to when he was just a Commander, as seen in House of Steel. He thought if anything was going to provoke Haven into attacking was the military build up that Manticore had undergone or any aggressive actions like annexing Basilisk or signing a treaty for an advance base with Grayson. He thought that if Manticore stayed irrelevant to Haven, then no war would come.

At least not in the foreseeable future. He may have seen that Manticore technology was keeping an edge over Haven's and increasingly so, so postponing the war as much as possible would be a good idea for when it eventually came. He would have been right: if the war had come a decade later, Manticore would have had several squadrons more of SDs and DNs (though probably not pod-laying ones), would have had CLACs and LACs. It might not have been as easy as Buttercup, but it would have been much easier than it was in 1905. Plus, one assumes that in this scenario, Haven attacked directly and there was no way the House of Lords could withhold the declaration of war.

But that's giving Janacek too much credit. I don't think he thought what I wrote in the previous paragraph. He probably thought it wasn't going to happen for a long time, that diplomacy would succeed in turning the Havenites away, and it would be Someone Else's Problem in the long run.

As for his beef with White Haven, he probably simply didn't think Hamish was that good, so benching White Haven would be no problem. He couldn't conceive of someone who wasn't leaps and bounds a better tactician and strategist than himself. Therefore, if Hamish disagreed with him, then by construction Hamish was wrong. This means, in his mind, he's not hurting the Kingdom by moving White Haven away, but in fact helping it.

And when he did eventually bench White Haven, during the High Ridge Government, they didn't actually need White Haven to win the war. I'm sure Santino could have followed the checklist all the way to Nouveau Paris at that point in time.

The fact that he committed suicide after he came to terms with his incompetence might seem to suggest that he loved his Star Kingdom. Unless, of course it was simply the embarrassment alone that drove his suicide.

I read as the latter case. Plus, it was shown that his Second Lord was actually hiding information that would have changed the decisions, in particular the reports that would lead to existence of the SD(P) and CLAC ship types in the RHN's order of battle. All of that happened under his watch: he selected Francis Jurgensen to head the RMN intelligence services, after all. At this point, there was also talk about bringing Jurgensen and High Ridge up on criminal charges, so Janacek would probably see the writing on the wall and choose the easy way out. He'd know the Conservative Association couldn't help him get out of it.

At any rate, since Janacek was not a stranger to ONI and intelligence, is it conceivable that he could be that wrong about Manticore's tech advantage, or did he simply not care that he was shooting the SK in the foot?

As I said, that's the wrong question to ask because the answer is "neither." He did never see his actions as shooting the SKM in the foot.

Aside from some very few characters, like during King Roger's assassination or like Elaine Descroix, the majority of people aren't not double-agents, not even unknowingly so. Neither High Ridge, nor Janacek, nor Countess New Kiev, nor Jurgensen did anything that they did with the intent to harm the Kingdom. They were all (in hindsight) extremely ill-advised, and some of them knew that some of what they were doing was so at the time (Jurgensen in particular). But between their corruption and their world (or Galaxy) view, they thought that what they were doing was the best.

In my opinion, that makes for a good story, when the villains aren't just out there for villainy and dastardly plots, but have well-reasoned (if faulty) thinking. In ToH, we do have the point of view of that reporter who was in the Conservative Association's pocket: at no point is he thinking he's doing harm, quite to the contrary.

To add, Janacheck was one of the oldest members of the RMN at the time - he was one of the earliest people in the Star Kingdom to get Prolong. More important, when young, he had become a member of "RMN Cruiser Gun Club" (my name) and been taken under the wings of the older members of that group. In short, his thinking represented that of the strategic topology over 100 years in the past.

That time was when the RMN had strategic peers, but no strategic threats. The threats were of keeping the peace and keeping minor players from making power plays which disturbed the larger balance. The RMN was a economic and diplomatic power house and could use that weight to diplomatically solve most issues, and when not, 100+ BCs and 3 squadrons of Capital Ships were threats few wouldn't recognize. The Mission of the Day: Protect the Wormhole, Protect the Homeworlds, protect the commerce, and keep good, friendly ties with the near peers.

Expansion = BAD.

Taking territory and building up an expeditionary force will worry the friendly peers and cause them to react. Keep the Status Quo.

I am oft reminded of the aphorism in Science - "Science moves ahead one funeral at a time." The Young tend to have ideas which move science forward, while the old, are in positions of leadership, but ossified in the science and beliefs of their youth. The older leadership tend to restrain and question the ideas of the young, but that hesitance is removed as the elders in the field leave us. And the cycle continues, with generations slowly moving from innovative concepts, to ossified leadership questioning the ideas of the next. To a degree this situation keeps us from jumping onto every idea, allowing us to debate and study every novel concept and determine it's validity, while also hindering us as ideas commonly take 50 or more years to be proven correct and widely accepted.

Janachek was such a figure - his thinking was ossified and he surrounded himself with like minded individuals, questioning any thing antithema to his core concepts and quickly rejecting anything (or anyone) who proved him wrong.