?

More contemplation ...


Does anyone else realize what has happened in the HV?

It is obvious to me that mankind has achieved what Einstein could not. Someone has succeeded in producing a Grand Unified Theory of equations.

Grand Unified Theory (GUT) is any model in particle physics that merges the electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces (the three gauge interactions of the Standard Model) into a single force at high energies.
–wiki

Some of David's technology also seems to suggest that gravity has been added to the mix and a Theory of Everything has been solved. That is the direction I was headed in the SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority thread, where a very ambitious post is lurking. It is why I state unequivocally that the alpha wall is a construct of very concentrated energy, whereby the weak gravitational force is no longer weak and it interacts with all of the other forces at very high energies.

Unifying gravity with the electronuclear interaction would provide a more comprehensive theory of everything (TOE) rather than a Grand Unified Theory. Thus, GUTs are often seen as an intermediate step towards a TOE.

Someone suggested that a new force has been created in the HV, or is present in hyperspace. I, OTOH, rather believe it isn't so much a new force, but a recombining* of all forces creating an entirely new 'effect.'

* Recombining, because it is believed that at the moment of the Big Bang the forces were as one. And if a Theory of Everything is a reality, then all versions of the phrase 'If you can conceive of it, then you can do it' really rings true.

The Mesan Alignment as a species of Alphas playing with a Theory of Everything frightens me.

penny wrote:Along with light. Grav waves do not escape the maws of a black hole. Nothing does! That fact makes it difficult to study black holes because they do not emit any information that can be studied. Light, and grav waves, would be information.

So, in shocking conclusion, an LD very well might be able to completely hide the emergency from hyper! No bleed of the sails or FTL ripples will occur!


References: Found in local space.

We describe the formation of a black hole via the implosion of an axisymmetric gravitational wave. Finite difference simulations of the vacuum Einstein equations are used to obtain these results. The initial data consist of nearly linear solutions to the vacuum constraint equations that represent even-parity, ingoing wave packets with quadrupole angular dependence. A black hole is demonstrated to form as a result of imploding a wave packet with a sufficiently large value of a strength parameter,

https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/1 ... D.46.R4117

Geon (physics)

In general relativity, a geon is a nonsingular electromagnetic or gravitational wave which is held together in a confined region by the gravitational attraction of its own field energy. They were first investigated theoretically in 1955 by J. A. Wheeler, who coined the term as a contraction of "gravitational electromagnetic entity".[1] -wiki

Fact: in a black hole, all of the mass is concentrated at the singularity at the very center.
Fact: every black hole singularity is surrounded by an event horizon. Nothing can escape from within the event horizon unless it can travel faster than light.
Fact: gravity travels at the speed of light.

Jonathan_S wrote:Except:

Jonathan_S wrote:A) What David Weber calls 'grav waves' (ripples moving along the alpha wall - at the speed of light in the Alpha bands, 62c) are NOT the same as the gravitational wave (stretching and compressing in space-time) that, for example, LIGO can detect - which move at the speed of light. Real physics gravitational waves are absorbed by a black hole -- but Honorverse grav waves?
There's no evidence whether a black hole would affect the alpha wall, or ripples moving along it. (might, might not. up to RFC)

It shouldn't matter what the matter is composed of. It won't escape a black hole. Nitpicking will not escape the maws of a black hole either.

Jonathan_S wrote:B) Honorverse tech can't produce black hole levels of gravity anyway -- making the question rather moot. (They can't even produce sufficient gravity to make neutronium -- which is far, far, below the level of gravity you need for a black hole.

The Mesan Alignment is not part of the HV. So, the HV has not been treated to that level of manipulating gravity, yet. Gravity is already being manipulated in extraordinary ways. If both the Grand Unified Field Theory and a Theory of Everything is a reality, then it is not only possible to manipulate gravity in that fashion, but highly probable. IMO.

"Jonathan_S wrote:C) If the LD could somehow wrap itself in a black hole; then how it is surviving or escaping?

It is surviving simply by utilizing the effects of counter-grav in a grand fashion. Made only possible because of the tremendous energies siphoned from the combined effect of all of the tractors working in unison upon one specific point on the alpha wall, while in hyper.

Escape is simply a matter of turning off the tractors.

penny wrote:Along with light. Grav waves do not escape the maws of a black hole. Nothing does! That fact makes it difficult to study black holes because they do not emit any information that can be studied. Light, and grav waves, would be information.

So, in shocking conclusion, an LD very well might be able to completely hide the emergency from hyper! No bleed of the sails or FTL ripples will occur!

tlb wrote:But there is gravity from a black hole outside of the event horizon. The ripple on the Alpha wall forms during the transition, before your imaginary "black hole" is formed (since the transition uses sails). The only thing "shocking" is that you are still promoting this. The tractor beams are not strong enough to do what you want.

penny wrote:Of course there is. The entire system contains gravity. But the gravity near the black hole is affecting the photons that are near it. One cannot venture too closely to the event horizon.

Out of your own mouth, I thought the author is in control of that. The tractor beams might not be able to do that, individually. But collectively they may. Since each of them is already powerful enough to punch a hole in n-space.

Moreover, a concerted effort might draw even more power from hyper. At very high energies, the matter of matter and gravity behaves quite differently.

In the exchange between markusschaber and I, I made it clear that the black hole around the ship would be formed while in hyper. Since a wedge exists in hyper.

Yes, the author is in control and so I will accept that this can happen when the author says it. I will NOT accept by your word alone.

The wedge (and by extension the tractors, to the power that you want them) cannot be used in either a gravity wave or when making a transition. The part about the wedge is definitely word from the author.

penny wrote:Made only possible because of the tremendous energies siphoned from the combined effect of all of the tractors working in unison upon one specific point on the alpha wall, while in hyper.

By word of the author, the tractors do NOT siphon energy; since the siphoning works from the bending of the wall, which is not done by the tractors.

tlb wrote:Yes, the author is in control and so I will accept that this can happen when the author says it. I will NOT accept by your word alone.

The wedge (and by extension the tractors, to the power that you want them) cannot be used in either a gravity wave or when making a transition. The part about the wedge is definitely word from the author.

Do you have text-ev that ships entering or exiting hyper from a rift cannot do so with an active impeller?

Because I don't recall that, and there are several passages that talk about ships maneuvering under wedge immediately before or after making translation -- with nothing about either dropping/raising them (with the time delay involved) or temporarily transitioning to sails. And frankly if you're in a rift sails won't do anything, and I thought I remembered that it's safer to make the translation into/out of hyper while under power -- which would seemingly mean under impeller wedge (unless there's a handy grav wave to hand)

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Along with light. Grav waves do not escape the maws of a black hole. Nothing does! That fact makes it difficult to study black holes because they do not emit any information that can be studied. Light, and grav waves, would be information.

So, in shocking conclusion, an LD very well might be able to completely hide the emergency from hyper! No bleed of the sails or FTL ripples will occur!

tlb wrote:But there is gravity from a black hole outside of the event horizon. The ripple on the Alpha wall forms during the transition, before your imaginary "black hole" is formed (since the transition uses sails). The only thing "shocking" is that you are still promoting this. The tractor beams are not strong enough to do what you want.

penny wrote:Of course there is. The entire system contains gravity. But the gravity near the black hole is affecting the photons that are near it. One cannot venture too closely to the event horizon.

Out of your own mouth, I thought the author is in control of that. The tractor beams might not be able to do that, individually. But collectively they may. Since each of them is already powerful enough to punch a hole in n-space.

Moreover, a concerted effort might draw even more power from hyper. At very high energies, the matter of matter and gravity behaves quite differently.

In the exchange between markusschaber and I, I made it clear that the black hole around the ship would be formed while in hyper. Since a wedge exists in hyper.

Yes, the author is in control and so I will accept that this can happen when the author says it. I will NOT accept by your word alone.

Sigh.

Why do I even bother. Remember when I said I grow weary of skipping over speed bumps that cause silly arguments??? You do know that this is the thread, don't you? Everyone in this thread has speculated on what is possible or what they think is possible. Am I not allowed to do so too? Nobody is claiming that their speculation is not up to the author. WE ALL KNOW THAT. I KNOW THAT. Please stop wasting posts (three on the previous page alone) on silly statements.

Every time I posit notions, even when the logic is sound, especially when the logic is sound, I get a "the author won't write that" "the author won't allow that" "the author doesn't think like that" on and on and on. You are not the author. I am not the author. But I was not aware that I, specifically , am not allowed to speculate, theorize or use my imagination. I should not be ostracized or disrespected because I have an imagination that is backed up by logic.

If the only rebuttal you have is that it is the author's decision, then you can stop wasting posts and my time. I promise, I, we, are all aware of that. Moreover, likewise, I do not have to take your word on what the author will and won't allow and will and won't write. Or that you yourself correctly grasp the HV in an absolute fashion.

If I would have come up with the idea of a spider-drive and a navy with better stealth than the GA, you would have said the same thing. I do wish you'd turn that broken record off.

tlb wrote:The wedge (and by extension the tractors, to the power that you want them) cannot be used in either a gravity wave or when making a transition. The part about the wedge is definitely word from the author.

Now that is an acceptable statement and conversation.

But what does a wedge and a grav wave have to do with this? Theemile already established that 95% of hyper does not contain grav waves. And wedges are UP during transitions.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Made only possible because of the tremendous energies siphoned from the combined effect of all of the tractors working in unison upon one specific point on the alpha wall, while in hyper.

By word of the author, the tractors do NOT siphon energy; since the siphoning works from the bending of the wall, which is not done by the tractors.

There is a reason that I began this page of the thread by reposting the bit about the Grand Unified Field Theory and the Theory of Everything.

Gravity and the three fundamental forces act differently at high energies. The combined effort of the tractor's gravitational effect acting on a specific area of the alpha wall might even absorb / siphon more energy than the wedge! A black hole will certainly bend the hyper wall as well. These are Alphas. I am an Alpha too.



PS

What is shocking is that I am still bothering to promote anything.

tlb wrote:The wedge cannot be used in either a gravity wave or when making a transition. The part about the wedge is definitely word from the author.

Jonathan_S wrote:Do you have text-ev that ships entering or exiting hyper from a rift cannot do so with an active impeller?

Because I don't recall that, and there are several passages that talk about ships maneuvering under wedge immediately before or after making translation -- with nothing about either dropping/raising them (with the time delay involved) or temporarily transitioning to sails. And frankly if you're in a rift sails won't do anything, and I thought I remembered that it's safer to make the translation into/out of hyper while under power -- which would seemingly mean under impeller wedge (unless there's a handy grav wave to hand)

Rats, caught by faulty memory. Sails have to be used for wormholes and gravity waves; but I was absolutely wrong saying that about every transition. From Pearls of Weber:

Hyper Translation wrote: Outside a grav wave's area of influence, you do not necessarily have to be underway to make a hyper transit; it's just a little safer because the forward movement gives you more dimensional stability when you crack the wall. If, however, you are making transit into a grav wave, you must have rigged at least one set of Warshawski sails, or grav shear will destroy your vessel as you enter the grav wave's area of influence.

Detection of Upper Hyper Translations wrote: Actually, upward transits into hyperspace are detectable from the hyper-space end, but not from the normal-space end. I phrased myself poorly in The Short Victorious War when I described what the Manties saw when Alexander hypered out. The "sparkle" wasn't really a hyper hyper footprint; it was the effect of a hyper transit by a ship underway under impeller drive. So, yes, it was a hyper footprint, but it didn't occur simply because a ship crossed a hyper wall. It happened because the ship in question was underway under impeller drive when it crossed the wall.

An embarrassed apology to all.

Seems to have lost BBS formatting again, now seeing the text version of the forum.

penny wrote:Along with light. Grav waves do not escape the maws of a black hole. Nothing does! That fact makes it difficult to study black holes because they do not emit any information that can be studied. Light, and grav waves, would be information.

So, in shocking conclusion, an LD very well might be able to completely hide the emergency from hyper! No bleed of the sails or FTL ripples will occur!


References: Found in local space.

We describe the formation of a black hole via the implosion of an axisymmetric gravitational wave. Finite difference simulations of the vacuum Einstein equations are used to obtain these results. The initial data consist of nearly linear solutions to the vacuum constraint equations that represent even-parity, ingoing wave packets with quadrupole angular dependence. A black hole is demonstrated to form as a result of imploding a wave packet with a sufficiently large value of a strength parameter,

https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/1 ... D.46.R4117

Geon (physics)

In general relativity, a geon is a nonsingular electromagnetic or gravitational wave which is held together in a confined region by the gravitational attraction of its own field energy. They were first investigated theoretically in 1955 by J. A. Wheeler, who coined the term as a contraction of "gravitational electromagnetic entity".[1] -wiki

Fact: in a black hole, all of the mass is concentrated at the singularity at the very center.
Fact: every black hole singularity is surrounded by an event horizon. Nothing can escape from within the event horizon unless it can travel faster than light.
Fact: gravity travels at the speed of light.

Jonathan_S wrote:Except:

A) What David Weber calls 'grav waves' (ripples moving along the alpha wall - at the speed of light in the Alpha bands, 62c) are NOT the same as the gravitational wave (stretching and compressing in space-time) that, for example, LIGO can detect - which move at the speed of light. Real physics gravitational waves are absorbed by a black hole -- but Honorverse grav waves?
There's no evidence whether a black hole would affect the alpha wall, or ripples moving along it. (might, might not. up to RFC)

penny wrote:It shouldn't matter what the matter is composed of. It won't escape a black hole. Nitpicking will not escape the maws of a black hole either.

Jonathan. I admit that I might have been a bit too hasty here! The reason we say nothing can escape a black hole is because nothing can exceed the speed of light. 'That is the escape velocity of a black hole.'

Escape velocity:

Earth: 11.19 km/s
Jupiter: 59.5 km/sec

But as you say, the author's grav waves are traveling at 62.5C! That surely might make a difference. Some waves might escape.

However, escape velocity near the singularity is greater than at the horizon. At the singularity would be the ship and the sails. And of course, the size of the black hole increases escape velocity.

So, absent certainty, some grav waves very well might escape. But they might be 'impeded' considerably. Of course, I think it depends on the size of the black hole around the ship. It has to be large enough to trap or at least blunt the grav waves. But not so large that the gravity overcomes the counter-grav preventing the ship from imploding.

So, I stand corrected and cannot dismiss either possibility. As you say, up to RFC. My apology for being too hasty.

I would point that that countergrav has only been seen used to let things float against a planetary gravity field. And nearly the strongest of those where we can be reasonably confident of countergrav use would be on San Martin, a 2.7g heavy grav planet.
Dunno if they'd be able to counter even a 10g gravity field.

And in some ways countergrav isn't.
Belying its name it doesn't actually seem to counter the effects of gravity -- not in any general sense.

Aircars and shuttles use it to help them fly, but if it actually countered the gravity on them then people inside them (or above them) would be weightless -- and they don't seem to be. Similarly countergrav cargo pallets don't seem to prevent the items stacked atop the pallet from being pulled onto it by gravity; nor does the pallet seem to be able to easily float into the sky -- instead the countergrav somehow lets it float solidly a short height above the ground or surface. Not exactly the effect you'd get if countergrav actually prevented gravity from affecting it. Nor would it float at all if countergrav simply prevented some large % of gravity from affecting it.

And remember when Alfred would have liked to have reduced the Sphinx gravity experienced by Honor's mom? That would have been achieved not by countergrav - but by outfitting the Harrington home with grav plates which could reduce the gravity experienced by those inside it.


So I think countergrav is somewhat misnamed; and misdoubt that it could be used to protect a ship inside a massive gravity field.

Jonathan_S wrote:I would point that that countergrav has only been seen used to let things float against a planetary gravity field. And nearly the strongest of those where we can be reasonably confident of countergrav use would be on San Martin, a 2.7g heavy grav planet.
Dunno if they'd be able to counter even a 10g gravity field.

And in some ways countergrav isn't.
Belying its name it doesn't actually seem to counter the effects of gravity -- not in any general sense.

Aircars and shuttles use it to help them fly, but if it actually countered the gravity on them then people inside them (or above them) would be weightless -- and they don't seem to be. Similarly countergrav cargo pallets don't seem to prevent the items stacked atop the pallet from being pulled onto it by gravity; nor does the pallet seem to be able to easily float into the sky -- instead the countergrav somehow lets it float solidly a short height above the ground or surface. Not exactly the effect you'd get if countergrav actually prevented gravity from affecting it. Nor would it float at all if countergrav simply prevented some large % of gravity from affecting it.

And remember when Alfred would have liked to have reduced the Sphinx gravity experienced by Honor's mom? That would have been achieved not by countergrav - but by outfitting the Harrington home with grav plates which could reduce the gravity experienced by those inside it.


So I think countergrav is somewhat misnamed; and misdoubt that it could be used to protect a ship inside a massive gravity field.

One aside, we already know there were several countergrav technologies - the grav plates seen in Havenite vessels in the Manticore Ascendant novels was a dead end technology, which was later thrown aside for the current grav plate technology. Missiles make their drive fields in a different manner (hardware with an integrated Compensator) than Warships do. Grayson comps work in a different manner than traditional comps.

Who is to say how many different ways of manipulating gravity there are.