I sure am glad we all took a moment for contemplation. After further consideration, I made a big mistake. Huge. I must have allowed myself to be talked into having a few drinks with the drunken wiki. But first, let us cycle back around to several posts …
penny wrote:
I also wonder, since an LD can produce intense fields of concentrated gravity, if a field of concentrated gravity can be placed around the entire ship that acts like a black hole absorbing the telltale bleed of the sails when exiting hyper.
Markusschaber wrote:
I think that one cannot produce such a field while still transitioning. If you're not yet in normal space, you cannot prevent bleeding in normal space.
And that kind of concentrated gravity should be easily visible on grav sensors, I guess.
penny wrote:
But what about the wedge? Then one shouldn't be able to produce the wedge either. The wedge is also a band of concentrated gravity. The wedge just doesn't encompass the entire ship.
Wait. The bleeding only occurs when the ship enters n-space, no? The sails are causing the bleed, which implies the sails must be in n-space, which implies the ship must be in n-space?
Jonathan_S wrote:
My impression is that the ship, along with its wedge or sail, makes the transition all together -- one instant none of it in is n-space, the next instance all of it is.
The sails then bleed off their excess energy - but that seems to be a bleeding of photons (so moving at lightspeed) and not the source of the emergence flare's FTL ripples. We don't know whether wedges have a similar kind of energy bleed; but the massive distorting effect they have on photons would mean it wouldn't be the awe inspiring sight of disks hundreds of km in diameter brightly (if briefly) glowing.
We know the emergency flare is affected by the energy that's carried across the hyperwall -- a function of ship mass and ship velocity (well, presumably, of velocity squared). A full speed crash translation it going to produce a vastly more obvious flare than if you'd slowed down to a relative stop before transitioning.
tlb wrote:
You say "intense fields of concentrated gravity", but the tractor beams are not anywhere near as strong as either the wedge or the sail; so there is NO chance that they can hide the effects of exiting hyper.
penny wrote:
I am sure you are correct. However, even if the tractor beams are nowhere near as powerful as the wedge, they are powerful enough to punch a hole in local space. To me that is very significant. Sounds like a mini local black hole to me.
And just like markusschaber stated above, that kind of concentrated gravity should be easily detected by grav sensors. But not only does textev say it is not detected, IINM, it also says it does not cause a visible distortion. If photons are not being bent and / or the effects of the tractors are not visible in the vicinity, then perhaps the intense gravity is trapping local photons, like a black hole / singularity.
Hence, that whole phenomenon might be exploited, and the intense gravity can surround the ship preventing the downward bleed by trapping the photons.
Jonathan_S wrote:
Actually, thinking about, it even if you could wrap the ship in a grav effect I don't think that would capture or suppress the emergence flare. We've never seen a wedge or any other grav effect absorb, deflect, weaken, or in any way affect the FTL ripples moving along the hyper wall -- whether generated by an FTL comm, a wedge, or a sail. Because those signals aren't carried by particles in normal spacetime there's no particular reason to expect even extreme gravity to affect them.
If you could wrap the emerging ship in a black hole level of gravity the photons of its emergence might not be visible (unless they escaped before the event horizon could form and trap them) -- but, far all we know, the FTL ripples (caused by the energy transferring through the hyper wall) might continue unimpeded. (Or might not)
That said, even the Honorverse can't create grav that powerful -- and you probably couldn't wrap a ship entire inside a gravity effect without subjecting the ship itself to that gravity. If its strong enough to eat photons its more than strong enough to instantly destroy the ship. But since they can't produce grav powerful enough to eat photons that seems moot.
Pardon my boldnessAnd here is where my inebriated state of mind caused by hanging out with the drunken wiki seduced me into making a huge mistake. Shocking!
penny wrote:
I'm thinking the FTL ripples will continue on and be detected, but it won't be accompanied by a brilliant flare. Thus, the entire phenomena might be ruled as a malfunction, an anomaly, or a ship that has exploded.
I agree that it shouldn't be possible to wrap a ship in such a massive gravity field without it affecting the ship. But it also shouldn't be possible to use a gravity field so concentrated that it can contain a reactor failure (like what happens with containment fields) without that concentrated gravity affecting the mechanism that is producing it. So, whatever breakthroughs in material and technology that enables concentrated gravity to be used as a containment field without interacting with the mechanism can simply be adapted in a large scale fashion.
But I am thinking that if the several tractors can each cut a hole in local space, if the effect of those tractors can combine to produce the effects at a single point in local space then perhaps a singularity can be formed that is the sum of the total. And the event horizon of such an accumulated source of several concentrated beams of gravity might extend beyond the ship. As a very concentrated single point of highly concentrated gravity produces a circumference of concentrated gravity represented by the event horizon of a black hole.
Along with light. Grav waves do not escape the maws of a black hole. Nothing does! That fact makes it difficult to study black holes because they do not emit any information that can be studied. Light, and grav waves, would be information.
So, in
shocking conclusion, an LD very well might be able to completely hide the emergency from hyper! No bleed of the sails or FTL ripples will occur!
References: Found in local space.
We describe the formation of a black hole via the implosion of an axisymmetric gravitational wave. Finite difference simulations of the vacuum Einstein equations are used to obtain these results. The initial data consist of nearly linear solutions to the vacuum constraint equations that represent even-parity, ingoing wave packets with quadrupole angular dependence. A black hole is demonstrated to form as a result of imploding a wave packet with a sufficiently large value of a strength parameter,
https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/1 ... D.46.R4117
Geon (physics)
In general relativity, a geon is a nonsingular electromagnetic or gravitational wave which is held together in a confined region by the gravitational attraction of its own field energy. They were first investigated theoretically in 1955 by J. A. Wheeler, who coined the term as a contraction of "gravitational electromagnetic entity".[1] -wiki
Fact: in a black hole, all of the mass is concentrated at the singularity at the very center. Fact: every black hole singularity is surrounded by an event horizon. Nothing can escape from within the event horizon unless it can travel faster than light. Fact: gravity travels at the speed of light.
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The artist formerly known as cthia.
Now I can talk in the third person.
