Case #000: Houseman vs Harrington

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:And do consider, she had no injuries and Young was a man. A bare-naked woman who a man tried to physically rape, premeditatedly, had no injuries? Is that because she lured him into the locker room after he rejected her advances, thus was able to get in the first strike?

It wouldn't be difficult to prove to anyone's satisfaction that she was physically more powerful than him and had fighting skills. She is a Sphinxian, so she has denser muscles. That's something he should have known. He probably did in the back of his mind, but dismissed as irrelevant because he was convinced of his right to "convince" any woman and she'd give in.

And in any case, what's his story for why he met her in the women's showers? Did she invite him there for a tryst, after having publicly rejected him? What story would he give to explain her change of mind?

Then there are Honor's witness to her mood afterwards: namely, her roommate, Mike Henke. She would corroborate Honor's state of mind after the event, as distraught. Premeditated assault wouldn't fit. Plus, they'd also point out that Nimitz had been uncharacteristically sick. Circumstantial, but damning nonetheless.

Moreover, Henke did go to the Island's authorities (IIRC), so they had a record of her allegations at the time, so Pavel couldn't claim that it was all made up "he said she said." Oh, he wouldn't know that before accusing Honor, so it's good for him he didn't.

Nimitz had also been drugged by a Cronney so we wouldn't follow Honor to the Showers- surely a blood test, if taken soon enough after the event would back this up. In which case it's a big pile of conspiracy and conclusion to attack Honor.

penny wrote:And do consider, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Honor lied too. Why would she lie if it was actually an attempted rape. It was because as she was accused on Grayson, she was desperate to get someone to rut between her lonesome thighs. It was simply a baseborn Commoner trying to catch herself a Lord and was rejected, scorned and seeking revenge. She knew Young to be a ladies man and whistled at him while she was standing butt butterball naked and dripping wet in the door to the shower.

Honor's martial arts expertise and her Sphinxian-bred strength saving the day could be called into question. You ever tried to make any sudden movements inside a wet shower while dripping wet and standing on slippery soapy tile? One quick movement and you'll bust your own head. Slippery soapy showers are no place for martial arts.

No, Honor lied herself because she was a scorned rejected woman who was trying to save face. Her refusal to tell the truth that Young actually tried to rape her is too damaging a hurdle to clear, IF Young had actually tried to rape her. She didn't admit it because he didn't try to rape her.

Um - what?
When was Honor ever asked about the incident? When would she have had the chance to lie?

With no accusation countering Young's story about falling down the stairs, totally unrelated to Honor, they'd have no reason to ask her to confirm he'd fallen down the stairs. After all he wasn't claiming she'd been there.


Yes, the school authorities strongly suspected what happened. They were almost pleading with her to accuse Young. But for that very reason they'd have been extremely careful not to put her in a position where she'd have to choose between lying or accusing him.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:And do consider, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Honor lied too. Why would she lie if it was actually an attempted rape. It was because as she was accused on Grayson, she was desperate to get someone to rut between her lonesome thighs. It was simply a baseborn Commoner trying to catch herself a Lord and was rejected, scorned and seeking revenge. She knew Young to be a ladies man and whistled at him while she was standing butt butterball naked and dripping wet in the door to the shower.

Honor's martial arts expertise and her Sphinxian-bred strength saving the day could be called into question. You ever tried to make any sudden movements inside a wet shower while dripping wet and standing on slippery soapy tile? One quick movement and you'll bust your own head. Slippery soapy showers are no place for martial arts.

No, Honor lied herself because she was a scorned rejected woman who was trying to save face. Her refusal to tell the truth that Young actually tried to rape her is too damaging a hurdle to clear, IF Young had actually tried to rape her. She didn't admit it because he didn't try to rape her.

Um - what?
When was Honor ever asked about the incident? When would she have had the chance to lie?

With no accusation countering Young's story about falling down the stairs, totally unrelated to Honor, they'd have no reason to ask her to confirm he'd fallen down the stairs. After all he wasn't claiming she'd been there.


Yes, the school authorities strongly suspected what happened. They were almost pleading with her to accuse Young. But for that very reason they'd have been extremely careful not to put her in a position where she'd have to choose between lying or accusing him.

Another post whereby I should have expanded my thoughts. Somehow I sometimes think my thoughts should be obvious, my apology. But lying by omission is still lying, if my parents are the meter stick. Honor was asked by several people to divulge what happened. She wouldn't even tell what actually happened to her best friend Mike Henke. And I can't imagine they kept many secrets from each other. Especially of that seriousness and variety. And also to Commandant Hartley? If any officer attempted to rape another officer, especially a higher ranking officer attempting to rape a lower ranking officer, the victim has a responsibility to herself and to the navy to tell the truth.

There would be too many people who would not understand the stigma associated with rape and why a woman would be too embarrassed or frightened to report it. We had that conversation before lurking in another thread. One of my Romanian friends said that that could only happen to prudish American women afraid to discuss anything related to sex. She may have a point, but it is no denying that it is still common and rapes are going on unreported even now. And even now people are finding it difficult to believe the victim wouldn't scream bloody murder if the rape is actually true. What's worse, it is difficult to believe that a strong willed woman as the Harringtons raised Honor, would have a problem with admitting it. And if a lawyer knows anything about Honor's unstable nuclear reactor could beat that horse to death. And if he knows the effect of Nimitz on Honor's psyche, strengthening her resolve, it should be even more difficult to believe.

What's worse, she lied by omission about an attempted rape. Not an actual rape. Which should be less embarrassing, if embarrassing at all, if we can be made to believe by Honor's defense attorney that she was too embarrassed to tell the truth. About an attempted rape. Unless of course Young actual slid in home base.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:And do consider, she had no injuries and Young was a man. A bare-naked woman who a man tried to physically rape, premeditatedly, had no injuries? Is that because she lured him into the locker room after he rejected her advances, thus was able to get in the first strike?

It wouldn't be difficult to prove to anyone's satisfaction that she was physically more powerful than him and had fighting skills. She is a Sphinxian, so she has denser muscles. That's something he should have known. He probably did in the back of his mind, but dismissed as irrelevant because he was convinced of his right to "convince" any woman and she'd give in.

And in any case, what's his story for why he met her in the women's showers? Did she invite him there for a tryst, after having publicly rejected him? What story would he give to explain her change of mind?

Then there are Honor's witness to her mood afterwards: namely, her roommate, Mike Henke. She would corroborate Honor's state of mind after the event, as distraught. Premeditated assault wouldn't fit. Plus, they'd also point out that Nimitz had been uncharacteristically sick. Circumstantial, but damning nonetheless.

Moreover, Henke did go to the Island's authorities (IIRC), so they had a record of her allegations at the time, so Pavel couldn't claim that it was all made up "he said she said." Oh, he wouldn't know that before accusing Honor, so it's good for him he didn't.

Theemile wrote:Nimitz had also been drugged by a Cronney so we wouldn't follow Honor to the Showers- surely a blood test, if taken soon enough after the event would back this up. In which case it's a big pile of conspiracy and conclusion to attack Honor.

Circumstantial evidence. Inadmissible. And since a drug test was not performed, it was simply hearsay. And who is to say that a poisoning of Nimitz was not carried out by someone who simply detested treecats or that Honor was given special treatment.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:And do consider, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Honor lied too. Why would she lie if it was actually an attempted rape. It was because as she was accused on Grayson, she was desperate to get someone to rut between her lonesome thighs. It was simply a baseborn Commoner trying to catch herself a Lord and was rejected, scorned and seeking revenge. She knew Young to be a ladies man and whistled at him while she was standing butt butterball naked and dripping wet in the door to the shower.

Honor's martial arts expertise and her Sphinxian-bred strength saving the day could be called into question. You ever tried to make any sudden movements inside a wet shower while dripping wet and standing on slippery soapy tile? One quick movement and you'll bust your own head. Slippery soapy showers are no place for martial arts.

No, Honor lied herself because she was a scorned rejected woman who was trying to save face. Her refusal to tell the truth that Young actually tried to rape her is too damaging a hurdle to clear, IF Young had actually tried to rape her. She didn't admit it because he didn't try to rape her.

Um - what?
When was Honor ever asked about the incident? When would she have had the chance to lie?

With no accusation countering Young's story about falling down the stairs, totally unrelated to Honor, they'd have no reason to ask her to confirm he'd fallen down the stairs. After all he wasn't claiming she'd been there.


Yes, the school authorities strongly suspected what happened. They were almost pleading with her to accuse Young. But for that very reason they'd have been extremely careful not to put her in a position where she'd have to choose between lying or accusing him.

Commodore Heartly (?) had her in his office with Young, and asked Honor her side of the story -and repeatedly asked her if this was the truth, and Honor refused to Pipe up. (Heartly knew the truth, because Henke to him about what happened (or what she thought happened), and Heartly detested Young.) This is when Heartly had Young apologize to her (about the slander), and punished Young.

Heartly later recounted it to either Webster or Hamish, who told us about it PoV, while discussing it between them in OBS.

Technically, Honor also lied about the incident and the School leadership knew it, but neither side of people actually present was willing to tell the truth.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Um - what?
When was Honor ever asked about the incident? When would she have had the chance to lie?

With no accusation countering Young's story about falling down the stairs, totally unrelated to Honor, they'd have no reason to ask her to confirm he'd fallen down the stairs. After all he wasn't claiming she'd been there.


Yes, the school authorities strongly suspected what happened. They were almost pleading with her to accuse Young. But for that very reason they'd have been extremely careful not to put her in a position where she'd have to choose between lying or accusing him.

Commodore Heartly (?) had her in his office with Young, and asked Honor her side of the story -and repeatedly asked her if this was the truth, and Honor refused to Pipe up. (Heartly knew the truth, because Henke to him about what happened (or what she thought happened), and Heartly detested Young.) This is when Heartly had Young apologize to her (about the slander), and punished Young.

Heartly later recounted it to either Webster or Hamish, who told us about it PoV, while discussing it between them in OBS.

Technically, Honor also lied about the incident and the School leadership knew it, but neither side of people actually present was willing to tell the truth.

I don't see anything in the text saying Honor was asked for her side of the story about an assault.

This seems to be the relivant text from the book

On Basilisk Station wrote:Commandant Hartley would have, she thought. She'd realized that years ago, and hated herself for not telling him at the time. Looking back, she could recognize his hints, his all but overt pleas for her to tell him everything. If he hadn't suspected, he would hardly have required Young to apologize after she'd reduced him to a bloody pulp.

Hinting that she should say something is NOT the same ask asking for her side of the story of the shower assault.

And even when Mike later talks about it there's no claim that Honor was asked to tell her side of the assault story

Short Victorious War wrote:"All right," Henke said after a moment, "let me tell you what I think happened. I think the bastard tried to rape you, and you kicked his balls up between his ears. Yes?"
"I-" Honor stopped and took a sip of cocoa, then sighed. "More or less," she said at last.
"Well, for God's sake, why didn't you say so at the time?! Lord knows I tried to get it out of you, and I'm sure Commandant Hartley did, too!"
"You're right." Honor's soprano was uncharacteristically soft, almost inaudible, as she stared down into her mug. "I didn't realize it at the time, but he must have known. Or guessed. But I was just-" She broke off and inhaled deeply. "I felt so dirty, Mike. Like he'd soiled me somehow, just by touching me. I was . . . ashamed. Besides, he was an earl's son, and I wasn't even pretty. Who would have believed me?"
"I would have," Henke said quietly, "and so would Hartley. So would anyone who knew both of you and heard both sides of the story."
[...]
"Yes," she said softly. "I would have believed you. As a matter of fact, that was pretty much what I thought had happened at the time. That's why I went to Hartley."
"You went to Hartley?!" Honor's eyes widened, and Henke shrugged uncomfortably.
"I was worried about you-and I was fairly sure you weren't going to come forward with the truth. So, yeah, I told him what I thought happened."
Honor stared at her, and her memory replayed the agonizing scene in the commandant's office, the way he'd almost begged her to tell him what had really happened, and she wished-again-that she had.

First "trying to get it out of you" is Mike's supposition; and "almost begged" like the previous "hinted" sounds to me like Hartley was trying to encourage Honor to share -- but also that he was doing so in a way to avoid putting her in a position she might feel the need to break the honor code by lying.

A possible example of such careful phrasing would be asking Honor "Is there anything else about your interactions with Cadet Young you would like to share?" -- that leaves her free to say no without consequence.

(Whereas if she was asked about all relevant interactions with him, or if she had reason to disbelieve Young's story, or questions along those lines -- well, all of those would put her in a position of refusing to answer or lying if she wanted to avoid accusing him)

penny wrote:Another post whereby I should have expanded my thoughts. Somehow I sometimes think my thoughts should be obvious, my apology. But lying by omission is still lying, if my parents are the meter stick. Honor was asked by several people to divulge what happened. She wouldn't even tell what actually happened to her best friend Mike Henke. And I can't imagine they kept many secrets from each other. Especially of that seriousness and variety. And also to Commandant Hartley? If any officer attempted to rape another officer, especially a higher ranking officer attempting to rape a lower ranking officer, the victim has a responsibility to herself and to the navy to tell the truth.

Horseshit. I see you have never talked to someone who has been raped or has been sexually assaulted, because as Honor told Mike much later she "felt dirty" and that's just the tip of the emotional iceberg. Many don't want to talk about, don't want to be reminded of it and just want to forget the whole experience any way possible which won't be possible if they speak up since then everything will be dragged out into the light and they have to suffer mentally through the whole thing again and again because people can't stop themselves from saying things like "Why didn't you report it?" since they have almost no understanding at all of the victims mental state.

penny wrote:There would be too many people who would not understand the stigma associated with rape and why a woman would be too embarrassed or frightened to report it. We had that conversation before lurking in another thread. One of my Romanian friends said that that could only happen to prudish American women afraid to discuss anything related to sex. She may have a point, but it is no denying that it is still common and rapes are going on unreported even now.

Embarrassed and frightened is a very small part of it, rape-victims many times suffer from self blame which is almost the same as survivors guilt. They are overwhelmed by the whole experience can't mentally deal with it which is also why many don't report it or talk about it, ever.

penny wrote:And even now people are finding it difficult to believe the victim wouldn't scream bloody murder if the rape is actually true. What's worse, it is difficult to believe that a strong willed woman as the Harringtons raised Honor, would have a problem with admitting it. And if a lawyer knows anything about Honor's unstable nuclear reactor could beat that horse to death. And if he knows the effect of Nimitz on Honor's psyche, strengthening her resolve, it should be even more difficult to believe.

It's almost like you haven't read the books, Honor was a wallflower at the time and wasn't the accomplished person she later became.

penny wrote:What's worse, she lied by omission about an attempted rape. Not an actual rape. Which should be less embarrassing, if embarrassing at all, if we can be made to believe by Honor's defense attorney that she was too embarrassed to tell the truth. About an attempted rape. Unless of course Young actual slid in home base.

What the actual fuck? Go read the books and stop bringing up shit that never happened or even suggesting what you just did.

What's worse is that you don't have an inkling what victims of sexual assault go through while thinking reason and logic applies to their situation and decisions, and if they don't do the logical thing they are at fault. You don't even understand that Pavel's sexual assault on Honor and how she reacted to it is rfc telling us through literary means how victims of sexual assault think and behave, which has very little to do with what is reasonable, logical and right.

May I suggest you go and do some volunteer work at a women's shelter to get a dose of reality before saying more stupid things.

penny wrote:And do consider, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Honor lied too.

-- skip --

Her refusal to tell the truth that Young actually tried to rape her is too damaging a hurdle to clear, IF Young had actually tried to rape her.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um - what?
When was Honor ever asked about the incident? When would she have had the chance to lie?

penny wrote:Another post whereby I should have expanded my thoughts. Somehow I sometimes think my thoughts should be obvious, my apology. But lying by omission is still lying, if my parents are the meter stick. Honor was asked by several people to divulge what happened. She wouldn't even tell what actually happened to her best friend Mike Henke. And I can't imagine they kept many secrets from each other. Especially of that seriousness and variety.

Refusal to say anything is NOT lying by omission. Lying by omission means that a statement was made, but an important detail was left out. An example might be saying: "my friend was resting quietly on the park bench when I left him" and failing to mention that he might have been passed out drunk.

It may well be that your parents considered it to be lying if you refused to say anything about an incident about which they demanded an explanation. Perhaps your parents are right to consider that an offense, but it is refusing to speak and NOT lying by omission. Even if your parents were lawyers, there is no reason to expect them to give you full benefit of the law.

It mainly comes into play if you have sworn to that "the evidence to be given by me shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.". However I am not sure that lying by omission is perjury, provided everything said is the literal truth. Lying by omission is something of an oxymoron.

Joat42 wrote:

penny wrote:Another post whereby I should have expanded my thoughts. Somehow I sometimes think my thoughts should be obvious, my apology. But lying by omission is still lying, if my parents are the meter stick. Honor was asked by several people to divulge what happened. She wouldn't even tell what actually happened to her best friend Mike Henke. And I can't imagine they kept many secrets from each other. Especially of that seriousness and variety. And also to Commandant Hartley? If any officer attempted to rape another officer, especially a higher ranking officer attempting to rape a lower ranking officer, the victim has a responsibility to herself and to the navy to tell the truth.

Horseshit. I see you have never talked to someone who has been raped or has been sexually assaulted, because as Honor told Mike much later she "felt dirty" and that's just the tip of the emotional iceberg. Many don't want to talk about, don't want to be reminded of it and just want to forget the whole experience any way possible which won't be possible if they speak up since then everything will be dragged out into the light and they have to suffer mentally through the whole thing again and again because people can't stop themselves from saying things like "Why didn't you report it?" since they have almost no understanding at all of the victims mental state.

penny wrote:There would be too many people who would not understand the stigma associated with rape and why a woman would be too embarrassed or frightened to report it. We had that conversation before lurking in another thread. One of my Romanian friends said that that could only happen to prudish American women afraid to discuss anything related to sex. She may have a point, but it is no denying that it is still common and rapes are going on unreported even now.

Embarrassed and frightened is a very small part of it, rape-victims many times suffer from self blame which is almost the same as survivors guilt. They are overwhelmed by the whole experience can't mentally deal with it which is also why many don't report it or talk about it, ever.

penny wrote:And even now people are finding it difficult to believe the victim wouldn't scream bloody murder if the rape is actually true. What's worse, it is difficult to believe that a strong willed woman as the Harringtons raised Honor, would have a problem with admitting it. And if a lawyer knows anything about Honor's unstable nuclear reactor could beat that horse to death. And if he knows the effect of Nimitz on Honor's psyche, strengthening her resolve, it should be even more difficult to believe.

It's almost like you haven't read the books, Honor was a wallflower at the time and wasn't the accomplished person she later became.

penny wrote:What's worse, she lied by omission about an attempted rape. Not an actual rape. Which should be less embarrassing, if embarrassing at all, if we can be made to believe by Honor's defense attorney that she was too embarrassed to tell the truth. About an attempted rape. Unless of course Young actual slid in home base.

What the actual fuck? Go read the books and stop bringing up shit that never happened or even suggesting what you just did.

What's worse is that you don't have an inkling what victims of sexual assault go through while thinking reason and logic applies to their situation and decisions, and if they don't do the logical thing they are at fault. You don't even understand that Pavel's sexual assault on Honor and how she reacted to it is rfc telling us through literary means how victims of sexual assault think and behave, which has very little to do with what is reasonable, logical and right.

May I suggest you go and do some volunteer work at a women's shelter to get a dose of reality before saying more stupid things.

I have gone through this before with you about this same subject in another thread. I informed you then that I have had someone in my social circles whom I care about dearly who was raped. Your statement is insensitive but not unexpected, considering the source. I have always had to consider the source when it comes to discussions with you. I also informed you that I had gone to a support group with her and listened to other women talk about their cases. Are you ever going to mature enough to discuss a conversation / book like an adult?

If anyone else in the forum does not realize that I am channeling the prosecution, whose job is to make Honor out of a liar by disputing everything she says, then speak up and I will slow down a tad. From experience, slowing down isn't going to work for joat. He doesn't bother to follow along with a discussion. He simply likes being what my foreign friends call a human speed bump.

penny wrote:If anyone else in the forum does not realize that I am channeling the prosecution, whose job is to make Honor out of a liar by disputing everything she says, then speak up and I will slow down a tad.

It is the prosecution job to ascertain the truth and seek justice, which does NOT mean "make Honor out of a liar by disputing everything she says". It would help if you knew the law better, since basically "lying by omission" is NOT true lying at all (despite what your parents may have told you).

PS: have you given up on Houseman?