?

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Viper gives up 50.9% of their range (3.5 million km vs 7.3 million km) to gain 27% better terminal velocity and a flight time that was 105 seconds shorter (75 vs 180).

Actually if you compare over 3.5 million km max range of the Viper the numbers are even more in it's favor.
75 vs 131 seconds and 42% higher terminal velocity.

And yet, even at energy range (250,000 km) a Viper would take 18 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km). And it'd be dead meet for PDLCs taking nearly 3 whole seconds to crawl through their fire. (Since, IIRC, they kick in at 100,000 km)

They gave up ~51% of their range for 2.8x better acceleration. (Compared to the half power SDM. If you wanted to compare it the other way they gained 120% the range and 29% greater acceleration than a full power SDM)

You saying they'd somehow instead find 21x the acceleration (a million gees). And even at a million gees a missile would still take 6.4 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km) if launched from energy range (250,000 km). And it'd still take 0.9 seconds to make it through the PDLC envelope because its terminal velocity from that range (0.2c) is less than a quarter of an MDM's (0.81c)

Oh, and even a g-torp's graser will do less damage than the broadside laser or graser mount of the ship that launched it. So even with this impossible missile you're making a slower, easier to defend, and less powerful attack than just using your energy weapons.



Now, admittedly, if they could get 10 seconds of runtime out of this insanely overpowered drive that'd let you engage from nearly twice normal energy range. Your terminal velocity would still be nothing to write home about; but it'd be way faster than any other ship could hit from out that far -- though don't forget that without a sidewall energy range against you doubles (to 500,000 km) and so you'd still be vulnerable to the target's energy mounts (if they could localize the launch) - while now they wouldn't be vulnerable to yours.
(You'd need 11 seconds or more of runtime out of this impossible missile to launch from where energy weapons counter-battery fire couldn't kill you)

Jonathan, your range numbers are off by a factor of 2 - laser/graser range is 500,000 KM (or closer, depending on sidewall strength) against sidewall protected targets, and 1,000,000 against ships with no sidewalls.

Jonathan_S wrote:oops.
Got that mixed up in my head and had failed to quickly find a reference to double-check.

So let me recalculate:
And yet, even at energy range (500,000 km) a Viper would take 27 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km). And it'd be dead meat for PDLCs taking nearly 1.5 seconds to crawl through their fire. (Since, IIRC, they kick in at 100,000 km)
(It'd have 1/8th the terminal velocity of an MDM)


And even at a million gees a missile would still take 9.6 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km) if launched from energy range (500,000 km). And it'd still take 0.55 seconds to make it through the PDLC envelope because its terminal velocity from that range (0.3c) is just over a third of an MDM's (0.81c)

Theemile wrote:And Let's not forget, the spider drive is supposed to be detectible inside of 1 Million KM. So if seen, it can be intercepted. Another reason to launch from far away...

penny wrote:But what do you mean there's no need to launch from a closer range? If a juicy target of opportunity wanders oh so close to your web in space, like Imperator, then it is a no brainer that Imperator would be engaged. I am not sure an LD has the loadout to overwhelm point defense. But smaller g-torps would allow a bigger Alpha launch. Only one g-torp needs to get through.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:oops.
Got that mixed up in my head and had failed to quickly find a reference to double-check.

So let me recalculate:
And yet, even at energy range (500,000 km) a Viper would take 27 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km). And it'd be dead meat for PDLCs taking nearly 1.5 seconds to crawl through their fire. (Since, IIRC, they kick in at 100,000 km)
(It'd have 1/8th the terminal velocity of an MDM)


And even at a million gees a missile would still take 9.6 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km) if launched from energy range (500,000 km). And it'd still take 0.55 seconds to make it through the PDLC envelope because its terminal velocity from that range (0.3c) is just over a third of an MDM's (0.81c)

And Let's not forget, the spider drive is supposed to be detectible inside of 1 Million KM. So if seen, it can be intercepted. Another reason to launch from far away...

penny wrote:Let's not forget that it is supposed to be detectible, by the MAlign's own technology, and possibly under test conditions, i.e., when they both know what to look for and when to be looking, and possibly where; all of those conditions we must assume. Certainly if it is our ass in the hot seat. We can hope the MA carried out those tests with traditional sensors available to the GA, and I agree that is possible. But then, still, the MA knew where, what and when to be looking, again, this we must assume.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But what do you mean there's no need to launch from a closer range? If a juicy target of opportunity wanders oh so close to your web in space, like Imperator, then it is a no brainer that Imperator would be engaged. I am not sure an LD has the loadout to overwhelm point defense. But smaller g-torps would allow a bigger Alpha launch. Only one g-torp needs to get through.

Because, as I've repeatedly argued, any CO that let a "juicy target" wander into that close range should be removed from service immediately for incompetence. There's no way that an LD would allow a superdreadnought (any SD, not just Imperator) to get within 1 million km of it. Not even a light cruiser.

This can only happen out of sheer bad luck and the only condition that I think are reasonable that don't indicate pure incompetence is if the LD is loitering near the hyperlimit and the opposing warship translates nearly on top of it. For any other reason, the LD can see ships for tens of light minutes with standard EM and a light-hour for gravitic sensors.

The opposing warship would not be approaching under stealth, unless it knew the LD was there in the first place. If it did, then it would have fired from a few million km away, not gone close to check it by itself.

Could it happen under (literally!) astronomical bad odds? Sure... the two ships are trying to get to the same place, so presumably there are only a few common paths that they would take. That's like the case of the French and British submarines that collided with each other a few years ago. But I still call this incompetence on the part of the LD skipper, because he should not have placed his ship on the common approach paths!

Besides, the other problem is the extreme unlikelihood of this being necessary. You don't design weapons for that case and in particular you don't load a lot of them into your ship, for logistic reasons, because they take the space of weapons you are more likely to need. Moreover, they wouldn't have those loaded out and ready to fire "just in case." And to top it all off, if this opposing ship is approaching unawares and is this close, it's going to be in energy range anyway in a couple of minutes and is coming with its throat open to the LD. It already has two weapons it can use: its graser mounts and the regular torpedoes anyway. Just drop off one torpedo before the opposing ship is within 1.5 million km so it won't detect the spider activation and vector it to stay between the oncoming ship and the LD.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Viper gives up 50.9% of their range (3.5 million km vs 7.3 million km) to gain 27% better terminal velocity and a flight time that was 105 seconds shorter (75 vs 180).

Actually if you compare over 3.5 million km max range of the Viper the numbers are even more in it's favor.
75 vs 131 seconds and 42% higher terminal velocity.

And yet, even at energy range (250,000 km) a Viper would take 18 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km). And it'd be dead meet for PDLCs taking nearly 3 whole seconds to crawl through their fire. (Since, IIRC, they kick in at 100,000 km)

They gave up ~51% of their range for 2.8x better acceleration. (Compared to the half power SDM. If you wanted to compare it the other way they gained 120% the range and 29% greater acceleration than a full power SDM)

You saying they'd somehow instead find 21x the acceleration (a million gees). And even at a million gees a missile would still take 6.4 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km) if launched from energy range (250,000 km). And it'd still take 0.9 seconds to make it through the PDLC envelope because its terminal velocity from that range (0.2c) is less than a quarter of an MDM's (0.81c)

Oh, and even a g-torp's graser will do less damage than the broadside laser or graser mount of the ship that launched it. So even with this impossible missile you're making a slower, easier to defend, and less powerful attack than just using your energy weapons.



Now, admittedly, if they could get 10 seconds of runtime out of this insanely overpowered drive that'd let you engage from nearly twice normal energy range. Your terminal velocity would still be nothing to write home about; but it'd be way faster than any other ship could hit from out that far -- though don't forget that without a sidewall energy range against you doubles (to 500,000 km) and so you'd still be vulnerable to the target's energy mounts (if they could localize the launch) - while now they wouldn't be vulnerable to yours.
(You'd need 11 seconds or more of runtime out of this impossible missile to launch from where energy weapons counter-battery fire couldn't kill you)

Jonathan, your range numbers are off by a factor of 2 - laser/graser range is 500,000 KM (or closer, depending on sidewall strength) against sidewall protected targets, and 1,000,000 against ships with no sidewalls.

jonathan_S wrote:oops.
Got that mixed up in my head and had failed to quickly find a reference to double-check.

So let me recalculate:
And yet, even at energy range (500,000 km) a Viper would take 27 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km). And it'd be dead meat for PDLCs taking nearly 1.5 seconds to crawl through their fire. (Since, IIRC, they kick in at 100,000 km)
(It'd have 1/8th the terminal velocity of an MDM)


And even at a million gees a missile would still take 9.6 seconds to reach laserhead range (50,000 km) if launched from energy range (500,000 km). And it'd still take 0.55 seconds to make it through the PDLC envelope because its terminal velocity from that range (0.3c) is just over a third of an MDM's (0.81c)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But what do you mean there's no need to launch from a closer range? If a juicy target of opportunity wanders oh so close to your web in space, like Imperator, then it is a no brainer that Imperator would be engaged. I am not sure an LD has the loadout to overwhelm point defense. But smaller g-torps would allow a bigger Alpha launch. Only one g-torp needs to get through.

Because, as I've repeatedly argued, any CO that let a "juicy target" wander into that close range should be removed from service immediately for incompetence. There's no way that an LD would allow a superdreadnought (any SD, not just Imperator) to get within 1 million km of it. Not even a light cruiser.

This can only happen out of sheer bad luck and the only condition that I think are reasonable that don't indicate pure incompetence is if the LD is loitering near the hyperlimit and the opposing warship translates nearly on top of it. For any other reason, the LD can see ships for tens of light minutes with standard EM and a light-hour for gravitic sensors.

The opposing warship would not be approaching under stealth, unless it knew the LD was there in the first place. If it did, then it would have fired from a few million km away, not gone close to check it by itself.

Could it happen under (literally!) astronomical bad odds? Sure... the two ships are trying to get to the same place, so presumably there are only a few common paths that they would take. That's like the case of the French and British submarines that collided with each other a few years ago. But I still call this incompetence on the part of the LD skipper, because he should not have placed his ship on the common approach paths!

Besides, the other problem is the extreme unlikelihood of this being necessary. You don't design weapons for that case and in particular you don't load a lot of them into your ship, for logistic reasons, because they take the space of weapons you are more likely to need. Moreover, they wouldn't have those loaded out and ready to fire "just in case." And to top it all off, if this opposing ship is approaching unawares and is this close, it's going to be in energy range anyway in a couple of minutes and is coming with its throat open to the LD. It already has two weapons it can use: its graser mounts and the regular torpedoes anyway. Just drop off one torpedo before the opposing ship is within 1.5 million km so it won't detect the spider activation and vector it to stay between the oncoming ship and the LD.

Theemile wrote:It's like designing a modern "Boomer" Submarine with dual minigun turrets to handle small boats.

It's not to say that there are not situations where the guns could be used to good effect - A Sub surfacing in the middle of bunch of pirate speed boats could make short work of them, or protect itself going into a "suspect" port.

But a Boomer should never be employed in such a role. It's job is to hide, protect itself from hunter/killer attack subs, and when D-day comes, launch it's nukes from far away. it should never do a different role or enter a "sketchy" port unless it absolutely needs to. Putting anything on said ship which gives a capability counter to it's main role is a waste 99.99% of the time, and doing any other roles puts a multi Billion dollar strategic asset needlessly at harm.

That being said, giving a Boomer a pair of M-2 50 cals it can mount to the observation deck on the sail just in case it needs
to defend itself and 10-20 boxes of ammo is a completely different story. That's not going to entice an admiral or Captain to hazard the unit "Because it has that capability", it doesn't detract from the main design, is cheap and easily storable, and gives an extra ounce of protection, just in case.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But what do you mean there's no need to launch from a closer range? If a juicy target of opportunity wanders oh so close to your web in space, like Imperator, then it is a no brainer that Imperator would be engaged. I am not sure an LD has the loadout to overwhelm point defense. But smaller g-torps would allow a bigger Alpha launch. Only one g-torp needs to get through.

Because, as I've repeatedly argued, any CO that let a "juicy target" wander into that close range should be removed from service immediately for incompetence. There's no way that an LD would allow a superdreadnought (any SD, not just Imperator) to get within 1 million km of it. Not even a light cruiser.

This can only happen out of sheer bad luck and the only condition that I think are reasonable that don't indicate pure incompetence is if the LD is loitering near the hyperlimit and the opposing warship translates nearly on top of it. For any other reason, the LD can see ships for tens of light minutes with standard EM and a light-hour for gravitic sensors.

The opposing warship would not be approaching under stealth, unless it knew the LD was there in the first place. If it did, then it would have fired from a few million km away, not gone close to check it by itself.

Could it happen under (literally!) astronomical bad odds? Sure... the two ships are trying to get to the same place, so presumably there are only a few common paths that they would take. That's like the case of the French and British submarines that collided with each other a few years ago. But I still call this incompetence on the part of the LD skipper, because he should not have placed his ship on the common approach paths!

Besides, the other problem is the extreme unlikelihood of this being necessary. You don't design weapons for that case and in particular you don't load a lot of them into your ship, for logistic reasons, because they take the space of weapons you are more likely to need. Moreover, they wouldn't have those loaded out and ready to fire "just in case." And to top it all off, if this opposing ship is approaching unawares and is this close, it's going to be in energy range anyway in a couple of minutes and is coming with its throat open to the LD. It already has two weapons it can use: its graser mounts and the regular torpedoes anyway. Just drop off one torpedo before the opposing ship is within 1.5 million km so it won't detect the spider activation and vector it to stay between the oncoming ship and the LD.