SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

penny wrote:I don't think the probes will be detected. Especially if the MA enjoys a certain breakthrough that they alleged they were close to achieving, like the microfusion tech. And as a result, they introduce a deadlier iteration of the Silver Bullet. As is, the Silver Bullets operated with impunity and located the Mycroft Platforms by the time the party started without being detected. And the SBs are presently as big as Lacs. Surely they can be dropped off in the system ahead of time and locate an entire fleet of SDs rather easily without being detected. And the SBs accomplished their stealthy feat with the Mycroft Platforms during DefCon 1. Finding an entire fleet of SDs during peacetime should be a piece of cake with the icing.

I agree that the MAlign probes can probably remain undetected (unless the GA comes up with a spider drive detector).

However where was it alleged they were close to cracking microfusion?

Also, don't forget the reason the Silver Bullets were able to find Mycroft is they got inside it and slowly traced the grav pulse transmissions between the controlling fort/base and the Mycroft relays. If a fleet detachment is being held in stealth to surprise attackers it shouldn't be broadcasting with its grav pulse comms. (While the RMN can make those somewhat directional they know all to well that they can be detected by normal shipboard Warshaskis should something be anywhere near the bearing of the transmission)
Also the stealthed units are probably sneaking around; so you don't have weeks to slowly trace back to locate the orbit of it; further complicating sniffing it out.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:I don't think the probes will be detected. Especially if the MA enjoys a certain breakthrough that they alleged they were close to achieving, like the microfusion tech. And as a result, they introduce a deadlier iteration of the Silver Bullet. As is, the Silver Bullets operated with impunity and located the Mycroft Platforms by the time the party started without being detected. And the SBs are presently as big as Lacs. Surely they can be dropped off in the system ahead of time and locate an entire fleet of SDs rather easily without being detected. And the SBs accomplished their stealthy feat with the Mycroft Platforms during DefCon 1. Finding an entire fleet of SDs during peacetime should be a piece of cake with the icing.

I agree that the MAlign probes can probably remain undetected (unless the GA comes up with a spider drive detector).

However where was it alleged they were close to cracking microfusion?

Also, don't forget the reason the Silver Bullets were able to find Mycroft is they got inside it and slowly traced the grav pulse transmissions between the controlling fort/base and the Mycroft relays. If a fleet detachment is being held in stealth to surprise attackers it shouldn't be broadcasting with its grav pulse comms. (While the RMN can make those somewhat directional they know all to well that they can be detected by normal shipboard Warshaskis should something be anywhere near the bearing of the transmission)
Also the stealthed units are probably sneaking around; so you don't have weeks to slowly trace back to locate the orbit of it; further complicating sniffing it out.

Do you mean the stealthed SD units are sneaking around? Have I incorrectly assumed that the SDs would want to practice radio silence and sit as still as a (pardon the pun) Spider? I am employing the same argument everyone trotted out to me in the Attacking Darius thread, whereby any activity in and around stealthed units will give it away.

Apologies about the microfusion reactor. I made that mistake in the (?) thread as well.

penny wrote:Do you mean the stealthed SD units are sneaking around? Have I incorrectly assumed that the SDs would want to practice radio silence and sit as still as a (pardon the pun) Spider? I am employing the same argument everyone trotted out to me in the Attacking Darius thread, whereby any activity in and around stealthed units will give it away.

Apologies about the microfusion reactor. I made that mistake in the (?) thread as well.

No one will sit in stealth in a defending system for weeks, unless they have reason to believe it is soon to be attacked. If they do believe that, then this stealth is only one of a group of nasty surprises they intend to unleash on the attackers the moment they reveal themselves. Knowing an attack is coming implies that they have some type of intelligence source and will therefore know other things that the attackers don't expect the defenders to know, like timing and origin vector. This is what Honor and Theisman did to Eleventh Fleet and Massimo Filareta during their arrival in Operation Raging Justice.

The only other option for a fleet being in stealth is that they're practising it. Practices are short, though, so this would be bad luck for the attackers. It can happen... it has happened: the HMSS Weyland crew was practising evacuation when Oyster Bay struck.

Other than that, no, a fleet won't be stealthed. It may be anchored and in low-power mode, but it won't be actively trying to hide. That means, like in the thread you mentioned, there will be traffic between the fleet and the inhabited places in the system, which can be followed. A stealth insertion by anyone anyone implies a lot of time observing the system before the actual attack happens.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The only other option for a fleet being in stealth is that they're practising it. Practices are short, though, so this would be bad luck for the attackers. It can happen... it has happened: the HMSS Weyland crew was practising evacuation when Oyster Bay struck.

Or HMS Minotaur at 2nd Hancock. The peep battleships and cruisers arrived while she was in a practice wargame; sneaking around out-system. Which helped her LACs ambush their formation and shoot up most of their towed pods -- dramatically upsetting their odds against the more conventional RMN units.

Or the ex-SLN Indefatigable-class BCs exercising a stealth approach against their base at Monica when Hexapuma and her scratch squadron showed up.

RFC does like his dramatic coincidences, doesn't he?

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The only other option for a fleet being in stealth is that they're practising it. Practices are short, though, so this would be bad luck for the attackers. It can happen... it has happened: the HMSS Weyland crew was practising evacuation when Oyster Bay struck.

Or HMS Minotaur at 2nd Hancock. The peep battleships and cruisers arrived while she was in a practice wargame; sneaking around out-system. Which helped her LACs ambush their formation and shoot up most of their towed pods -- dramatically upsetting their odds against the more conventional RMN units.

Or the ex-SLN Indefatigable-class BCs exercising a stealth approach against their base at Monica when Hexapuma and her scratch squadron showed up.

RFC does like his dramatic coincidences, doesn't he?

Yes he does. LOL

But he has to be consistent. The RMN usually dropped off GR drones to keep watch over a system and to collect important tactical data for when the fleet returns. Why wouldn't the MA do that with its own stealthy drones? Because of the paltry accel of the MA's drones, those drones have no choice but to be given the time to do their thing.

Anyways, Daryl's notion that prompted this tendril of the discussion seems out of sorts. It seems to be an avenging solution and not a preventive solution. Of course, if it is utilized in conjunction with the blocking wedges as stated before, then fine. But what initiated the discussion is the seeming lack of the GA taking the threat seriously. As kzt's hobby horse regarding the GA's posture and MO regarding ships wedges, and being sitting ducks, since OB seems to point out.

Anyway, it would be out of character for the GA to employ those measures in a hidden system when they do not do it even when and where there might be an attack.

tlb wrote:

Joat42 wrote:The cloaking system has to store generated heat somewhere and then radiate it, which leads to 2 situations:

1. Using the cloaking so far out that they can safely radiate heat away from the system which kind of makes the need for a cloak a bit redundant.
2. Using the cloak to avoid detection in system which means they can't radiate heat which limits the time they can be cloaked.

Also, remember that cloak and stealth aren't exactly the same thing.

Seeding a system with probes also increases the risk of detection which means any surprise attack my be stunted.

We saw the discussion of cloaking using stealth smart paint and heat dispersal in chapter 9 of Mission of Honor, with regard to the Ghost class ships operating around Grayson. The main limitation, while operating in system, was to prevent the opposing force from sighting the heat exhaust; either directly or by drones.

Yes, but the farther in you operate the likelier it is that someone spots the heat-signature which is why you store the heat until you can safely dissipate it.

Joat42 wrote:We saw the discussion of cloaking using stealth smart paint and heat dispersal in chapter 9 of Mission of Honor, with regard to the Ghost class ships operating around Grayson. The main limitation, while operating in system, was to prevent the opposing force from sighting the heat exhaust; either directly or by drones.

Yes, but the farther in you operate the likelier it is that someone spots the heat-signature which is why you store the heat until you can safely dissipate it.[/quote]

Let not forget, the only way you can hide an emergence translation is via light months of transition (at very low velocities). (Light weeks in a 2nd tier system, light days in a 3rd tier). So, in a major system, an opponent warship would need to perform an OB type maneuver to hide it's translation, and be out of pocket for MONTHS at a time. For a single use, sure, for normal manuevers, this ties units up for multiple months incommunicado, and makes for an inflexible fleet.

Joat42 wrote:The cloaking system has to store generated heat somewhere and then radiate it, which leads to 2 situations:

1. Using the cloaking so far out that they can safely radiate heat away from the system which kind of makes the need for a cloak a bit redundant.
2. Using the cloak to avoid detection in system which means they can't radiate heat which limits the time they can be cloaked.

Also, remember that cloak and stealth aren't exactly the same thing.

Seeding a system with probes also increases the risk of detection which means any surprise attack my be stunted.

tlb wrote:We saw the discussion of cloaking using stealth smart paint and heat dispersal in chapter 9 of Mission of Honor, with regard to the Ghost class ships operating around Grayson. The main limitation, while operating in system, was to prevent the opposing force from sighting the heat exhaust; either directly or by drones.

Joat42 wrote:Yes, but the farther in you operate the likelier it is that someone spots the heat-signature which is why you store the heat until you can safely dissipate it.

That same chapter says this about waste heat:

Like any stealth system, it still had to deal with things like waste heat, for example. Current technology could recapture and use an enormous percentage of that heat, but not all of it, and what they couldn't capture still had to go somewhere. And, like other navies' stealth systems, the MAN's dealt with that by radiating that heat away from known enemy sensors.

So I see where the author is saying that waste heat can be minimized, but I do not see where he is saying that waste heat can be stored for any length of time.

You just run a really low power wedge, one that is basically useless and undetectable , so you can dump all the via the same magical process as all the other ships use.

kzt wrote:You just run a really low power wedge, one that is basically useless and undetectable , so you can dump all the via the same magical process as all the other ships use.

I remember dumping acceleration using wedge and compensator, but not heat. However that does not help a spider drive, which is what we expect from the Leonard Detweiler class.