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SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:32 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:The MAlign does want to close the tech gap. Destroying all of Bolthole's infrastructure will handily accomplish that task by removing the ability of the enemy to manufacture those "superior weapons," somewhat leveling the playing field. Sending in a landing party to engage enemy forces section by section is too time consuming. And dangerous. Given time and opportunity, the enemy could surreptitiously launch a stealthy drone carrying scans and images of the LD. And the MAlign would not want to risk losing the opportunity to destroy the space station. Of course, if opportunity to secure a space station presents itself. Then sure. I just don't see that policy being part of the main objective. Rather than a secondary objective.


Aside from the other 10 yards that can also produce the same, sure. As of 1925, Bolthole may be the centre of new R&D, but it's not the centre of production. I don't think it corresponds to even 40% of the total GA output.

Remember how the IAN ships disappeared from Theisman's and NavInt's radar for a year during the war? They weren't being refitted with Keyhole II in any of the yards that Haven knew about, so there's at least one more secret yard somewhere.

Plus all the known ones. There's a major one in Nouveau Paris, one over Manticore, one in New Berlin, one in the Yieltsin system, plus subsidiary ones in the Sigma Draconis system, Grendelsbane, I'm guessing two more in the Republic.

So Bolthole is important and may be even irreplaceable, but it's not critical. The MAlign would need to attack all of the above to significantly curtail the GA's war production capability.

BTW, the MA could have come up with specialized methods of securing orbitals by developing gases that act on compulsion. Etc. Etc.


Of orbitals? Against airtight space stations?

The gas would disperse before settling in any significant quantities over anything. Maybe they could rain down on the planet and still do something to the local populace, but I think the HV technology does not reach that far. Likewise, I don't think the nanites in the HV are capable enough to penetrate airtight seals.

Of course, destroying all of the known bases would be priority one of the LDs maiden voyage. But without the location of Bolthole, such an operation would not be fatal. The notion draws on me pointing out that the difference between submarines of WWII and the LD analog in the HV is that the LDs have the firepower to completely decimate entire bases. Eliminating all of the known bases and production facilities would prevent the GA from prosecuting the war.

The gases would be deployed while troops are aboard the space station. Armor piercing flash / gas grenades?
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:22 pm

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penny wrote:The gases would be deployed while troops are aboard the space station. Armor piercing flash / gas grenades?


I don't see a scenario where Mesan troops board anything in Bolthole. If there's enough infrastructure left to board, then there's enough of it left to shoot back at the LDs. The Mesan troops can't board until the LDs have unquestioned control of the orbitals, but they can't control the orbitals until the stations are smashed to fine debris.

And besides, the defenders would scuttle the yards and ships in them, and erase the data before any boarding happens.

No, if the MAN found Bolthole, the Alignment would try to do what it does best, which is not fight space battles. It would try and infiltrate spies.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by kzt   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 6:33 pm

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I have to point out that people who have highly stealthy weapon platforms might get them into a position against a basically fixed location where fairly surgical destruction of the weapon systems and defensive systems might be done without massive damage to the main body of a station. Particularly when combined with large numbers of decoys and large nukes being used as jammers.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by kzt   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 6:37 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And besides, the defenders would scuttle the yards and ships in them, and erase the data before any boarding happens.

I can’t imagine anyone who would threaten convincingly only accept a surrender unless the computers were delivered intact. That would contradict centuries of tradition. Oh, right…
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:56 pm

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And besides, the defenders would scuttle the yards and ships in them, and erase the data before any boarding happens.

I can’t imagine anyone who would threaten convincingly only accept a surrender unless the computers were delivered intact. That would contradict centuries of tradition. Oh, right…


Fair, but would the defenders think that the MAlign would honour their terms of surrender anyway? Especially when the LDs would have had to declare their presence with a surprise salvo that would have caused massive casualties?

And IIRC, if they do the erasing before they receive the terms of surrender, they can't go back in time.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Sun Apr 14, 2024 10:24 pm

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kzt wrote:I have to point out that people who have highly stealthy weapon platforms might get them into a position against a basically fixed location where fairly surgical destruction of the weapon systems and defensive systems might be done without massive damage to the main body of a station. Particularly when combined with large numbers of decoys and large nukes being used as jammers.

That is exactly where I was headed with the new g-torp / platform in the ? thread. Something even smaller and stealthier that can sneak up on a space station and attack it at critical but not fatal points. If a station is depressurized at critical points (along with weapons destroyed) there might not be enough time for data wipes to occur. A surprise flash bang startles and immobilizes occupants into indecision. They might even have to rush to get into suits, etc.

The MA's current weapons should be able to do the same. Do consider that any marines aboard a space station usually have plenty of warning before being attacked.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:28 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And IIRC, if they do the erasing before they receive the terms of surrender, they can't go back in time.

Well, sucks to be them. ‘We have made a very generous offer. Perhaps you have a backup site? Like there was on Gryphon?’
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:31 am

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In a real Honorverse scenario, do you think that the Powers That Be won't have considered all of this?
The LDs arrive undetected, perform a sneak attack, then declare their hand, at which point the stealthed fleet of SDs lights up their wedges and trashes the LDs.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 15, 2024 3:02 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And IIRC, if they do the erasing before they receive the terms of surrender, they can't go back in time.


kzt wrote:Well, sucks to be them. ‘We have made a very generous offer. Perhaps you have a backup site? Like there was on Gryphon?’


Sure we do. Would you like to accompany us to the Manticore Binary System to retrieve it? I promise the Home Fleet will allow you in the system.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:00 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sure we do. Would you like to accompany us to the Manticore Binary System to retrieve it? I promise the Home Fleet will allow you in the system.

Well, that’s ok, we captured the storage system on the planet. It’s encrypted, but I’m sure we’ll fix that, though perhaps a little memory simulation might be needed. Or will it?
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