SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:But as I said, there is a different tactical situation. There is no need to board the space station. Either comply or die. We don't have room for prisoners anyway. Send us Shannon and Sonja or die. Along with both of them. LDs may not be in the habit of having the luxury of loitering around waiting for "ground assaults" either. Your ride is leaving in 5 minutes. Grab the "bearer bonds" and leave the currency.

If you just want to kill them all, sure.
I thought we were discussing a situation where the Malign wanted to grab things to close the tech gap -- better FTL, Apollo, Ghost Rider, MDMs, microfusion, etc. etc.
Can't count on doing that from the scattered shards of a vaporized R&D station or yard.

If they're happy to just blow it all away then, yes, no need for troops.

If they want to leave it intact enough to hope to board and gather plans or materials to reverse engineer then they have to plan for fighting their way through it room by room - regardless of whether or not they're taking prisoners.

The MAlign does want to close the tech gap. Destroying all of Bolthole's infrastructure will handily accomplish that task by removing the ability of the enemy to manufacture those "superior weapons," somewhat leveling the playing field. Sending in a landing party to engage enemy forces section by section is too time consuming. And dangerous. Given time and opportunity, the enemy could surreptitiously launch a stealthy drone carrying scans and images of the LD. And the MAlign would not want to risk losing the opportunity to destroy the space station. Of course, if opportunity to secure a space station presents itself. Then sure. I just don't see that policy being part of the main objective. Rather than a secondary objective.

BTW, the MA could have come up with specialized methods of securing orbitals by developing gases that act on compulsion. Etc. Etc.

At any rate, for a landing party to secure a space station would require an LD to get in close. Are you now agreeing that LDs may have varying missions, thus the need to creep in closer?

tlb wrote:But isn't it clear to everyone that the orbitals cannot be left intact (particularly after Beowulf), so they all are going to die anyway? Then why hand over anyone or anything?

penny wrote:The carrot offered would be the privilege to evacuate, and to save the lives of Shannon and Sonja AND all of those experienced workers. And if Sanctuary can be threatened, it will be. Launching on Sanctuary will NOT be a bluff.

So if life pods start launching immediately, they will be destroyed.

I am curious to see if RFC will ever write this.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:But isn't it clear to everyone that the orbitals cannot be left intact (particularly after Beowulf), so they all are going to die anyway? Then why hand over anyone or anything?

penny wrote:The carrot offered would be the privilege to evacuate, and to save the lives of Shannon and Sonja AND all of those experienced workers. And if Sanctuary can be threatened, it will be. Launching on Sanctuary will NOT be a bluff.

So if life pods start launching immediately, they will be destroyed.

I am curious to see if RFC will ever write this.

That ship has already sailed in the Hypatia system when Admiral Hajdu Gyôzô was carrying out his part of Operation Buccaneer which included the extermination of innocent civilians.

Hadju ordered his ship to fire on escape pods! Hadju grew up on a 12,000-hectare cattle ranch handling dangerous bulls. “Mess with the bull, you get the horns.”

And those orders came from the SLN! An entity with a history of enforcing the Edict. We are talking about the much more malignant MAlignment. Who has a whole lot more at stake than they do?

As I said, a completely different tactical situation presents itself; as a result of not being constrained and hamstrung by being party to any treaties or by being a member of any conventions or, (sick), by having morals, scruples and values.

penny wrote:As I said, a completely different tactical situation presents itself; as a result of not being constrained and hamstrung by being party to any treaties or by being a member of any conventions or, (sic), by having morals, scruples and values.

Well they do have values, but the sanctity of lesser human life is not one of them.

I think we all agree that the Leonard Detweiler class of ships are matters of great curiosity. They were originally designed to carry out the greater version of Oyster Bay. But now with Galton asserting the claim that it had all the technology to carry out that attack, we all wonder to what use RFC will put them.

You usually propose scenarios that are possible (*) and we only wonder how likely they are to match the author's thinking. Of course we are all waiting for more books and it is interesting to consider such things in the meantime.

*) I only recall two things proposed that I consider impossible:

1) The trial by the restored Republic of Haven of Thomas Theisman for treason against the defunct Peoples' Republic of Haven. If that were a crime in the restored republic, then all of its officials could be presumed guilty for colluding with him after the execution of Oscar Saint-Just.

2) The repudiation of Honor Harrington, by the people of Grayson after a fundamental religious revival, for "cheating" in the trial by combat against William Fitzclarence, Lord Burdette. A man who had freely admitted, and shown no remorse, of being responsible for the death of children in his conspiracy against the Protector.

kzt wrote:

penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

They would certainly want to take a bunch of prisoners if they took bolthole. They would want to gather as much data as possible before blowing the whole construction and naval base to hell.

MyCall4Me wrote:Wouldn't that require ground forces? And I would think that Manticore would have sent marines to protect their people (especially Sonja) And the MA's forces wouldn't have the experience or military traditions of the RMMC. It would be like a bunch of recruits attacking an experienced combat unit.

Then there's the small problem of finding them in the first place amidst all the destruction and confusion of the surprise attack.

I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

I looked it up. It was a lovely redhead with whom I first developed a crush.

Ragnhild Pavletic was killed when her pinnace, Hawk-Papa-One, was destroyed by point defense cluster fire from the Mesan armed freighter Marianne, while in orbit around Montana.

I was wrong about it being a warship. It was a freighter. But the carrot Honor extended of allowing the freighter to go on living would still be the same.

penny wrote:I looked it up. It was a lovely redhead with whom I first developed a crush.

Ragnhild Pavletic was killed when her pinnace, Hawk-Papa-One, was destroyed by point defense cluster fire from the Mesan armed freighter Marianne, while in orbit around Montana.

I was wrong about it being a warship. It was a freighter. But the carrot Honor extended of allowing the freighter to go on living would still be the same.

How could you look it up and still think that it was Honor involved? From Shadow of Saganami:

Chapter 47 wrote:"Attention freighter Golden Butterfly!" She heard the Skipper's voice come up on the com as she settled down on course for the freighter. "Golden Butterfly, this is Captain Terekhov of Her Majesty's Starship Hexapuma. You are ordered to stand by for boarding and examination. My boarding party is en route now. You will open your hatches immediately."

Chapter 3 wrote:The delicately built honey-blond midshipwoman led the way to the gallery end of the tube, and the Marine came to attention and saluted. She returned the salute crisply.
"Midshipwoman Pavletic and party to join the ship's company, Corporal," she said. The others had passed her the record chips of their official orders, and she handed all three of them over to the sentry.

Redhead? There is a Ginger Lewis, but no one is described as redhead in that book.

penny wrote:I looked it up. It was a lovely redhead with whom I first developed a crush.

Ragnhild Pavletic was killed when her pinnace, Hawk-Papa-One, was destroyed by point defense cluster fire from the Mesan armed freighter Marianne, while in orbit around Montana.

I was wrong about it being a warship. It was a freighter. But the carrot Honor extended of allowing the freighter to go on living would still be the same.

tlb wrote:How could you look it up and still think that it was Honor involved? From Shadow of Saganami:

Chapter 47 wrote:"Attention freighter Golden Butterfly!" She heard the Skipper's voice come up on the com as she settled down on course for the freighter. "Golden Butterfly, this is Captain Terekhov of Her Majesty's Starship Hexapuma. You are ordered to stand by for boarding and examination. My boarding party is en route now. You will open your hatches immediately."

Chapter 3 wrote:The delicately built honey-blond midshipwoman led the way to the gallery end of the tube, and the Marine came to attention and saluted. She returned the salute crisply.
"Midshipwoman Pavletic and party to join the ship's company, Corporal," she said. The others had passed her the record chips of their official orders, and she handed all three of them over to the sentry.

Redhead? There is a Ginger Lewis, but no one is described as redhead in that book.

Sorry, I only looked up the list of character names. And I was in a rush. Another apology.

FYI:

What is the difference between honey blonde and golden blonde? While golden blonde and honey are similar hues, honey blonde hair color features more red and brown undertones to make it rich-looking and multidimensional.

I have an affinity for redheads, as I have mentioned quite a few times. Whereas you would see a honey-blonde, I would see a red-headed honey.

penny wrote:FYI:

What is the difference between honey blonde and golden blonde? While golden blonde and honey are similar hues, honey blonde hair color features more red and brown undertones to make it rich-looking and multidimensional.

I have an affinity for redheads, as I have mentioned quite a few times. Whereas you would see a honey-blonde, I would see a red-headed honey.

Okay, but I do not think we know whether the added shades were brown or red; so chacun à son goût. I think red hair is pretty also, but only thought of her as blonde.

I came back in to point out the Ginger Lewis is indeed a redhead as described in Honor Among Enemies; the word "redhead" is not used in SoS.

I once disagreed whether Marg Helgenberger, as seen on CIS, was a redhead or a strawberry blonde or a blonde with red highlights. I did not think that there was enough red for her to be considered a redhead.

penny wrote:
And those orders came from the SLN! An entity with a history of enforcing the Edict. We are talking about the much more malignant MAlignment. Who has a whole lot more at stake than they do?

As I said, a completely different tactical situation presents itself; as a result of not being constrained and hamstrung by being party to any treaties or by being a member of any conventions or, (sick), by having morals, scruples and values.

Umm, where are they going to go? Before the unfortunate incident in which a volley of SLN missiles sterilizes the planet as well as all the ships and stations?

penny wrote:The MAlign does want to close the tech gap. Destroying all of Bolthole's infrastructure will handily accomplish that task by removing the ability of the enemy to manufacture those "superior weapons," somewhat leveling the playing field. Sending in a landing party to engage enemy forces section by section is too time consuming. And dangerous. Given time and opportunity, the enemy could surreptitiously launch a stealthy drone carrying scans and images of the LD. And the MAlign would not want to risk losing the opportunity to destroy the space station. Of course, if opportunity to secure a space station presents itself. Then sure. I just don't see that policy being part of the main objective. Rather than a secondary objective.

Aside from the other 10 yards that can also produce the same, sure. As of 1925, Bolthole may be the centre of new R&D, but it's not the centre of production. I don't think it corresponds to even 40% of the total GA output.

Remember how the IAN ships disappeared from Theisman's and NavInt's radar for a year during the war? They weren't being refitted with Keyhole II in any of the yards that Haven knew about, so there's at least one more secret yard somewhere.

Plus all the known ones. There's a major one in Nouveau Paris, one over Manticore, one in New Berlin, one in the Yieltsin system, plus subsidiary ones in the Sigma Draconis system, Grendelsbane, I'm guessing two more in the Republic.

So Bolthole is important and may be even irreplaceable, but it's not critical. The MAlign would need to attack all of the above to significantly curtail the GA's war production capability.

BTW, the MA could have come up with specialized methods of securing orbitals by developing gases that act on compulsion. Etc. Etc.

Of orbitals? Against airtight space stations?

The gas would disperse before settling in any significant quantities over anything. Maybe they could rain down on the planet and still do something to the local populace, but I think the HV technology does not reach that far. Likewise, I don't think the nanites in the HV are capable enough to penetrate airtight seals.