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SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:13 pm

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kzt wrote:
penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

They would certainly want to take a bunch of prisoners if they took bolthole. They would want to gather as much data as possible before blowing the whole construction and naval base to hell.

I can agree with that. And I am sure their intel has included huge files on each of our dynamic duo. As long as we agree that it will be a one-way trip. There will be no prisoner exchanges. I am not so sure they'll even be allowed to see Darius. I will be shocked if prisoners are allowed aboard an LD. Let alone live after they see one.

But let's not call whatever will go on after they are captured an interrogation. More like the Spanish Inquisition on steroids, err, Spanish Inquisition on nanites. Imagine an MA derived truth serum.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:28 pm

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kzt wrote:
penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

They would certainly want to take a bunch of prisoners if they took bolthole. They would want to gather as much data as possible before blowing the whole construction and naval base to hell.


MyCall4Me wrote:Wouldn't that require ground forces? And I would think that Manticore would have sent marines to protect their people (especially Sonja) And the MA's forces wouldn't have the experience or military traditions of the RMMC. It would be like a bunch of recruits attacking an experienced combat unit.

Then there's the small problem of finding them in the first place amidst all the destruction and confusion of the surprise attack.

I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:21 pm

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penny wrote:I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

Pretty clear from the rest of that post that "ground forces" was being use synonymously with armed away/landing forces -- like the Marines mentioned.
penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

That's find if the target is deserted or presumed to be complying. But absent and extremely unlikely unconditional surrender, nobody should be expected to simply land and inspect any of the Bolthole yards or stations. I can't imagine Bolthole wouldn't have assigned Marines, and the station crew would also have access to arms to assist in repelling borders.

So you'd need to plan for opposed landings and having to clear the stations of defenders before it was safe for your tech teams to attempt intelligence or material collection.

And if you're facing defending Marines you'd want Marine equivalents of your own, not just armed crewmen. But we don't know if the LDs carry such.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Mycall4me   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:13 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

Pretty clear from the rest of that post that "ground forces" was being use synonymously with armed away/landing forces -- like the Marines mentioned.



penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

That's find if the target is deserted or presumed to be complying. But absent and extremely unlikely unconditional surrender, nobody should be expected to simply land and inspect any of the Bolthole yards or stations. I can't imagine Bolthole wouldn't have assigned Marines, and the station crew would also have access to arms to assist in repelling borders.

So you'd need to plan for opposed landings and having to clear the stations of defenders before it was safe for your tech teams to attempt intelligence or material collection.

And if you're facing defending Marines you'd want Marine equivalents of your own, not just armed crewmen. But we don't know if the LDs carry such.
Last edited by Mycall4me on Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Mycall4me   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:14 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

Pretty clear from the rest of that post that "ground forces" was being use synonymously with armed away/landing forces -- like the Marines mentioned.

Yes, indeedy deed, you are correct

penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

That's find if the target is deserted or presumed to be complying. But absent and extremely unlikely unconditional surrender, nobody should be expected to simply land and inspect any of the Bolthole yards or stations. I can't imagine Bolthole wouldn't have assigned Marines, and the station crew would also have access to arms to assist in repelling borders.

So you'd need to plan for opposed landings and having to clear the stations of defenders before it was safe for your tech teams to attempt intelligence or material collection.

And if you're facing defending Marines you'd want Marine equivalents of your own, not just armed crewmen. But we don't know if the LDs carry such.


Even if the MA has considered the need for an equivalent force of marine "types" they couldn't possibly match or be expected to have the depth of experience that the RMMC or the Havenite armed forces has. That will count for much in any combat situation.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Mycall4me   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:15 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

Pretty clear from the rest of that post that "ground forces" was being use synonymously with armed away/landing forces -- like the Marines mentioned.

Yes, indeedy deed, you are correct

penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

That's find if the target is deserted or presumed to be complying. But absent and extremely unlikely unconditional surrender, nobody should be expected to simply land and inspect any of the Bolthole yards or stations. I can't imagine Bolthole wouldn't have assigned Marines, and the station crew would also have access to arms to assist in repelling borders.

So you'd need to plan for opposed landings and having to clear the stations of defenders before it was safe for your tech teams to attempt intelligence or material collection.

And if you're facing defending Marines you'd want Marine equivalents of your own, not just armed crewmen. But we don't know if the LDs carry such.


Even if the MA has considered the need for an equivalent force of marine "types" they couldn't possibly match or be expected to have the depth of experience that the RMMC or the Havenite armed forces has. That will count for much in any combat situation.

*** PS Sorry for the tripled post, my tablet is interfacing with the forum in a strange way, a very strange hiccup and for some reason the delete post option is NOT available (although I WAS able to edit and add this PS)
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:08 am

penny
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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:I am not so sure an LD would have ground forces. Why would ground forces be needed for Bolthole? Isn't Bolthole's infrastructure based in space?

Pretty clear from the rest of that post that "ground forces" was being use synonymously with armed away/landing forces -- like the Marines mentioned.
penny wrote:I would assume you are referring to spare crew who can search a space station. Seizing control of a space station presents a different tactical situation than a ground assault. Heck, an entire ship was going to be seized earlier in the series when Honor sent the two crewmen to check out an entire ship. What is the cute redhead's name who met her maker at the end of a surprise cannon? (BTW, that is a quintessential and commonplace Hollywood portrayal of what oftentimes happens with a wet navy.)

That's find if the target is deserted or presumed to be complying. But absent and extremely unlikely unconditional surrender, nobody should be expected to simply land and inspect any of the Bolthole yards or stations. I can't imagine Bolthole wouldn't have assigned Marines, and the station crew would also have access to arms to assist in repelling borders.

So you'd need to plan for opposed landings and having to clear the stations of defenders before it was safe for your tech teams to attempt intelligence or material collection.

And if you're facing defending Marines you'd want Marine equivalents of your own, not just armed crewmen. But we don't know if the LDs carry such.

I used crewmen in lieu of "ground forces" or "landing party" because I think the former is the most accurate with the latter stretching reality a bit. I am already overstretched by being talked into accepting that the MA would even take prisoners.

But think about it. If the consensus in the forum is correct about how the LDs will be utilized, g-torps launched from the edge of the system, then the natural aspirations of the LD does not include prisoners. ICBMs are not normally launched with prisoners in mind.

But in the event that prisoners are taken, I would rather bet my money on it being by luck, by providence, or by that Demon Murphy. Or because an LD had spun a web right inside Bolthole's "harbor" and has watched the routine comings and goings of Sonja and Shannon. The same way Honor was captured. "Hands up! We got the drop on you." There is no need to throw your life away. Although they may later learn that their life had already been forfeited upon capture by the MA.

But as I said, there is a different tactical situation. There is no need to board the space station. Either comply or die. We don't have room for prisoners anyway. Send us Shannon and Sonja or die. Along with both of them. LDs may not be in the habit of having the luxury of loitering around waiting for "ground assaults" either. Your ride is leaving in 5 minutes. Grab the "bearer bonds" and leave the currency.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 8:14 am

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penny wrote:But as I said, there is a different tactical situation. There is no need to board the space station. Either comply or die. We don't have room for prisoners anyway. Send us Shannon and Sonja or die. Along with both of them. LDs may not be in the habit of having the luxury of loitering around waiting for "ground assaults" either. Your ride is leaving in 5 minutes. Grab the "bearer bonds" and leave the currency.

If you just want to kill them all, sure.
I thought we were discussing a situation where the Malign wanted to grab things to close the tech gap -- better FTL, Apollo, Ghost Rider, MDMs, microfusion, etc. etc.
Can't count on doing that from the scattered shards of a vaporized R&D station or yard.

If they're happy to just blow it all away then, yes, no need for troops.

If they want to leave it intact enough to hope to board and gather plans or materials to reverse engineer then they have to plan for fighting their way through it room by room - regardless of whether or not they're taking prisoners.
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 8:36 am

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penny wrote:But as I said, there is a different tactical situation. There is no need to board the space station. Either comply or die. We don't have room for prisoners anyway. Send us Shannon and Sonja or die. Along with both of them. LDs may not be in the habit of having the luxury of loitering around waiting for "ground assaults" either. Your ride is leaving in 5 minutes. Grab the "bearer bonds" and leave the currency.

But isn't it clear to everyone that the orbitals cannot be left intact (particularly after Beowulf), so they all are going to die anyway? Then why hand over anyone or anything?
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Re: SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superio
Post by penny   » Sat Apr 13, 2024 9:03 am

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:But as I said, there is a different tactical situation. There is no need to board the space station. Either comply or die. We don't have room for prisoners anyway. Send us Shannon and Sonja or die. Along with both of them. LDs may not be in the habit of having the luxury of loitering around waiting for "ground assaults" either. Your ride is leaving in 5 minutes. Grab the "bearer bonds" and leave the currency.

But isn't it clear to everyone that the orbitals cannot be left intact (particularly after Beowulf), so they all are going to die anyway? Then why hand over anyone or anything?

The carrot offered would be the privilege to evacuate, and to save the lives of Shannon and Sonja AND all of those experienced workers. And if Sanctuary can be threatened, it will be. Launching on Sanctuary will NOT be a bluff.
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