SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

penny wrote:Bureaucratic red tape does not denote a lack of freedom. On the contrary, bureaucratic red tape could be viewed as an ally to freedom. It provides an avenue.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, but you previously said that East Germans were not free. Yet they had a bureaucratic process, with its red tape, to apply to visit West Berlin, West Germany, or other international locations.

What rejection rate from the bureaucracy make a people unfree?

Apparently East Germans at IIRC >50% rejection were unfree. But over 2% of US residents are apparently barred from entering Canada due to prior DUI convictions, and virtually no US residents are permitted (by the US) to travel to Cuba but I presume you view US residents as free. So where's the cut-off?

tlb wrote:To the extent that this is a "right" whose lawful exercise is very much dependent on government actions and the "bureaucratic red tape" is a result of restrictive laws passed by those governments.

penny wrote:Oh my word! Anyone should know that bureaucratic red tape comes in all shapes and forms. I DID say that bureaucratic red tape "COULD" be viewed as an ally to travel; as a means, as a path. IF such red tape is not TOO restrictive. Such as it was with East Germany. East Germans could not exchange enough of their currency for the destination's currency. Like Czechoslovakia. So after you arrived you did not have enough money to BUY anything. If you did not return, you can bet your family members would not be allowed to go ANYWHERE. Lines at the border were so long that only the healthy could handle it. Etc., etc. I have heard horror stories from my Romanian friends; some of whom were Romanian by way of East Germany. I have bookends made from the Berlin Wall.

Referencing East Germany as a country who allowed its citizens to travel is asinine! They were not traveling. They were FLEEING!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Bureaucratic red tape does not denote a lack of freedom. On the contrary, bureaucratic red tape could be viewed as an ally to freedom. It provides an avenue.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, but you previously said that East Germans were not free. Yet they had a bureaucratic process, with its red tape, to apply to visit West Berlin, West Germany, or other international locations.

What rejection rate from the bureaucracy make a people unfree?

Apparently East Germans at IIRC >50% rejection were unfree. But over 2% of US residents are apparently barred from entering Canada due to prior DUI convictions, and virtually no US residents are permitted (by the US) to travel to Cuba but I presume you view US residents as free. So where's the cut-off?

tlb wrote:To the extent that this is a "right" whose lawful exercise is very much dependent on government actions and the "bureaucratic red tape" is a result of restrictive laws passed by those governments.

penny wrote:Oh my word! Anyone should know that bureaucratic red tape comes in all shapes and forms. I DID say that bureaucratic red tape "COULD" be viewed as an ally to travel; as a means, as a path. IF such red tape is not TOO restrictive. Such as it was with East Germany. East Germans could not exchange enough of their currency for the destination's currency. Like Czechoslovakia. So after you arrived you did not have enough money to BUY anything. If you did not return, you can bet your family members would not be allowed to go ANYWHERE. Lines at the border were so long that only the healthy could handle it. Etc., etc. I have heard horror stories from my Romanian friends; some of whom were Romanian by way of East Germany. I have bookends made from the Berlin Wall.

Referencing East Germany as a country who allowed its citizens to travel is asinine! They were not traveling. They were FLEEING!

I have tried here to arrange the quotes about East Germany in order. To be clear, no one here has said that they were free. Jonathan_S was asking you about the sorites paradox (which has come up before): at what point does that "red tape" hinder freedom, specifically aren't we in the US less free because of restrictions on going to Cuba? Note that this does not equate us to the citizens of the former East Germany, because we are at different ends of the spectrum that varies from slightly restricted to extremely restricted.

I have only said (or tied to say) that the "red tape" grows out of the country's laws and whether it is to any extent helpful depends on the intent and interpretation of those laws.

tlb wrote:I have tried here to arrange the quotes about East Germany in order. To be clear, no one here has said that they were free. Jonathan_S was asking you about the sorites paradox (which has come up before): at what point does that "red tape" hinder freedom, specifically aren't we in the US less free because of restrictions on going to Cuba? Note that this does not equate us to the citizens of the former East Germany, because we are at different ends of the spectrum that varies from slightly restricted to extremely restricted.

I have only said (or tied to say) that the "red tape" grows out of the country's laws and whether it is to any extent helpful depends on the intent and interpretation of those laws.

penny wrote:

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:For example keeping sidewalls active over the yards at all times; having block ships constantly putting up mazes of wedges outside of that, leaving PDLCs on automatic computer control (which could blunt the short range launches of stealthed pods of cataphracts), etc. Those are all expensive, in terms of burning through component lifetimes and maintenance requirements (and leaving people out of the loop on the PDLCs carries some risk of friendly fire) -- but they're something that could have been done without any new technological breakthroughs once it was apparent that weapons might strike with near-zero warning.

None of those will stop an attack -- but they probably up the number of weapons needed to kill a yard by 50 to 100 times.

If they did that. Is there any actual evidence that they have taken any serious countermeasures? We see them having entire fleets with all the wedgrs down past OB and parking in one place and daring the enemy to approach.

penny wrote:Exactly what I was referring to. And so, since Bolthole is hidden, how can we expect that they don't simply rely on the fact that they are hidden.

Jonathan_S wrote:For example keeping sidewalls active over the yards at all times; having block ships constantly putting up mazes of wedges outside of that, leaving PDLCs on automatic computer control (which could blunt the short range launches of stealthed pods of cataphracts), etc. Those are all expensive, in terms of burning through component lifetimes and maintenance requirements (and leaving people out of the loop on the PDLCs carries some risk of friendly fire) -- but they're something that could have been done without any new technological breakthroughs once it was apparent that weapons might strike with near-zero warning.

None of those will stop an attack -- but they probably up the number of weapons needed to kill a yard by 50 to 100 times.

kzt wrote:If they did that. Is there any actual evidence that they have taken any serious countermeasures? We see them having entire fleets with all the wedgrs down past OB and parking in one place and daring the enemy to approach.

penny wrote:Exactly what I was referring to. And so, since Bolthole is hidden, how can we expect that they don't simply rely on the fact that they are hidden.

kzt wrote:

penny wrote:Exactly what I was referring to. And so, since Bolthole is hidden, how can we expect that they don't simply rely on the fact that they are hidden.

I’m kind of hoping that some fleet full of cocky, overconfident, and arrogant spacers uses their proven tactics and gets their clock cleaned.

penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

kzt wrote:

penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

They would certainly want to take a bunch of prisoners if they took bolthole. They would want to gather as much data as possible before blowing the whole construction and naval base to hell.

kzt wrote:

penny wrote:That clock can also be set back years. Both Shannon Foraker and Sonja are at Bolthole, and I don't see the MA taking prisoners. If Both of our demonic duo are captured, tortured and / or killed, that could set the GA back years.

They would certainly want to take a bunch of prisoners if they took bolthole. They would want to gather as much data as possible before blowing the whole construction and naval base to hell.