Sally goes rogue

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:I suppose it could be read that way, but I am not sure there is a good example of that happening. Only during the two times that Sir Edward Janacek was First lord of the Admiralty was she even in political conflict with the Officer in charge of Naval conduct; in both cases she simply did her job to the best of her ability.

And when she was put on half-pay, she went to do policy in the House of Lords. She didn't go rogue.

She also did go to Grayson often and got intelligence from the GSN and the Protector. Being a citizen of two nations and a Fleet Admiral in their respective two navies, she can always go to the one that doesn't have a hostile government to her, and continue the policies she believes are correct from there. In the case of Grayson, the Protector has far more control over policy than the Queen/Empress does.

And that's not to mention the other three governments where she has a considerable amount of influence with: Haven, Beowulf, and the Andermani. She can talk to her brother, to Theisman, or to von Habenstrage and those have the ears of their respective political leaders. We haven't seen yet a scene where she has an audience with Anderman himself, but if she asked for it, she'd probably get it.

And that was my point: she'd have the backing of likely three, probably four of the most powerful nations in the Galaxy, so no one would believe the fifth wouldn't be on-board. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter because would have the backing of those three-or-four nations' policy-makers.

Interesting.

What if going to the House of Lords and other measures fail to work?

Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

At any rate, running to Grayson for support in pulling off her rogue operation should allow the Queen to disavow her actions. And if Beth disavows her actions, would the remaining GA be obligated to attack Grayson?

And, if the GA does not attack Grayson, who else will? Even if Honor does go rogue, why would either member of the GA have to disavow her? What government is powerful enough to attack the GA, even if the GA is billed as being bad by the media? The superpower who wins the war also wins the ability to make policy, as I have been told countless times by most everyone in the forum.

Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?

penny wrote:Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

At any rate, running to Grayson for support in pulling off her rogue operation should allow the Queen to disavow her actions. And if Beth disavows her actions, would the remaining GA be obligated to attack Grayson?

And, if the GA does not attack Grayson, who else will? Even if Honor does go rogue, why would either member of the GA have to disavow her? What government is powerful enough to attack the GA, even if the GA is billed as being bad by the media? The superpower who wins the war also wins the ability to make policy, as I have been told countless times by most everyone in the forum.

Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?

People are not all saying that Honor CANNOT go rogue, some are simply saying that she WILL NOT go rogue.

Grayson did NOT go rogue when High Ridge was in power, because his government unilaterally ended Manticore's alliances. Ending the relationship allowed everyone else to act on their own; such as Erewhon making an alliance with Haven.

If Grayson breaks its ties with the Grand Alliance, that does not require that the GA attack Grayson; unless it broke those ties by attacking another alliance member.

Honor sent the message that the GA is a policy enforcer (not her) and we expect that would include some variant of the Eridani Edict, but do not know.

We know that Manticore had arguments with the Solarian League prior to open conflict with it, forcing them to embargo military exports for example.

penny wrote:Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

It's less that she can't go rogue (though I can't conceive that she would) -- but that she can't believably be disavowed for going rogue. No one outside the GA is likely to believe that any action she takes isn't sanctioned by her government(s).

A ship captain can take actions which her government can disavow later (whether or not they privately approve) to smooth over diplomatic issues. And people will believe, or at least profess to believe, that the captain exceeded her authority and wasn't representing the position and desires of her government.
They won't believe that of Honor (even if, inconceivably, she does decide to take actions against her governments' positions and desires)

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

At any rate, running to Grayson for support in pulling off her rogue operation should allow the Queen to disavow her actions. And if Beth disavows her actions, would the remaining GA be obligated to attack Grayson?

And, if the GA does not attack Grayson, who else will? Even if Honor does go rogue, why would either member of the GA have to disavow her? What government is powerful enough to attack the GA, even if the GA is billed as being bad by the media? The superpower who wins the war also wins the ability to make policy, as I have been told countless times by most everyone in the forum.

Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?

People are not all saying that Honor CANNOT go rogue, some are simply saying that she WILL NOT go rogue.

Grayson did NOT go rogue when High Ridge was in power, because his government unilaterally ended Manticore's alliances. Ending the relationship allowed everyone else to act on their own; such as Erewhon making an alliance with Haven.

If Grayson breaks its ties with the Grand Alliance, that does not require that the GA attack Grayson; unless it broke those ties by attacking another alliance member.

Honor sent the message that the GA is a policy enforcer (not her) and we expect that would include some variant of the Eridani Edict, but do not know.

We know that Manticore had arguments with the Solarian League prior to open conflict with it, forcing them to embargo military exports for example.

I was not aware that High Ridge ended the alliances. I simply thought he strained them???

At any rate, Honor's intentions were rogue on her way to attack the Sol System. Carrying out your own vendetta instead of the wishes of your government is the definition of going rogue. What do you think would have happened if Hamish hadn't short stopped Honor before she unleashed the full fury of her Meyerdahl-B bloodline?

Do you really think someone who was born with Honor's unstable reactor will not go rogue? Someone who slapped the caca out of a crown envoy, nearly decapitated an enemy with her barehand, shot a man dead in the streets against her government's wishes and was exiled because of it won't go rogue to protect her loved ones, citizens of the GA and her Star Kingdom who are all in danger if it is the only way?

LOL!!! Get a grip! Honor can't when she short circuits, but you can.

penny wrote:At any rate, Honor's intentions were rogue on her way to attack the Sol System. Carrying out your own vendetta instead of the wishes of your government is the definition of going rogue. What do you think would have happened if Hamish hadn't short stopped Honor before she unleashed the full fury of her Meyerdahl-B bloodline?

Do you really think someone who was born with Honor's unstable reactor will not go rogue? Someone who slapped the caca out of a crown envoy, nearly decapitated an enemy with her barehand, shot a man dead in the streets against her government's wishes and was exiled because of it won't go rogue to protect her loved ones, citizens of the GA and her Star Kingdom who are all in danger if it is the only way?

You are wrong about what happened at the Sol System before White Haven arrived; Honor only needed a verbal warning from Mercedes Bingham to keep control, so she did not go rogue.

I believe that Honor would not go rogue, but there is a good reason why she cannot go rogue after UH: she is retired from all naval command. She stayed retired in TEiF until she was recalled to command the force going to Galton. Note the restraint she showed after the post-surrender attack. At the end of the book she was turning command over to Henke and going back into retirement. So she will not even have a ship to command (unless she is still captain of that museum ship), much less a fleet.

PS: Honor's temper is not the hot, erratic berserker kind that is uncontrollable; it is the cold, calculating kind similar to the rage of Bahzell (when entered willingly) in the War God's Own series.

penny wrote:Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

At any rate, running to Grayson for support in pulling off her rogue operation should allow the Queen to disavow her actions. And if Beth disavows her actions, would the remaining GA be obligated to attack Grayson?

That's straining credulity. It goes completely against what we know of Honor: she wouldn't go rogue against the Queen.

She may feel obliged to exercise her powers of policy-making outside of the SEM if the Government is doing stupid things (such as in the High Ridge days), but she would only do that with tacit approval from the Queen. Which means the Government wouldn't be able to declare her rogue, because the Queen wouldn't allow it (though a constitutional monarchy and there being a Prime Minister, the monarch is still both Head of State and of Government). The Government may make some pronouncements short of official edicts, but the same can be said of the Queen. Or, for that matter, the Queen's silence: it would speak volumes. That would tell everyone Honor did indeed have the Queen's tacit approval -- and "tacit" means "silent", from Latin tacitus, past participle of taceo, tacui, tacere, tacitum, to be silent, say nothing, shut up.

On the other hand, if she did indeed go rogue, against all we know of her character, then it's highly likely none of the other polities in the GA would side with her. It would still be a major headache for it because no one outside of it would believe their denials and disavowals, but Honor's ability to effect change would be severely limited without the resources of at least one of those entities.

Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?

What does that have to do with going rogue?

If the GA decides that they want to enforce the EE, that would most likely be overt policy.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Going to Grayson is also interesting. We know that Grayson and Manticore was at odds during High Ridge's tenure. On the one hand, people are saying that Honor cannot go rogue, but Thinksmarkedly's notion of her going to Grayson for political support for her policies implies that Grayson will go rogue against the GA. In a sense, Grayson certainly went rogue against High Ridge's government by continuing its military buildup, which could have sent the wrong message to Manticore's enemies.

At any rate, running to Grayson for support in pulling off her rogue operation should allow the Queen to disavow her actions. And if Beth disavows her actions, would the remaining GA be obligated to attack Grayson?

That's straining credulity. It goes completely against what we know of Honor: she wouldn't go rogue against the Queen.

Agreed. Honor wound never go rogue against the Queen. Nor did I say she would. Grayson going rogue against the GA or the current Manticoran government is not the same thing.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:She may feel obliged to exercise her powers of policy-making outside of the SEM if the Government is doing stupid things (such as in the High Ridge days), but she would only do that with tacit approval from the Queen. Which means the Government wouldn't be able to declare her rogue, because the Queen wouldn't allow it (though a constitutional monarchy and there being a Prime Minister, the monarch is still both Head of State and of Government). The Government may make some pronouncements short of official edicts, but the same can be said of the Queen. Or, for that matter, the Queen's silence: it would speak volumes. That would tell everyone Honor did indeed have the Queen's tacit approval -- and "tacit" means "silent", from Latin tacitus, past participle of taceo, tacui, tacere, tacitum, to be silent, say nothing, shut up.A

OK. I have a few reservations about this passage, but I think it falls under nit-picking. Namely, I don't think Honor would formally go rogue against the Queen, not technically. Doing something she feels protects the Queen by protecting the MBS is not the definition of going rogue, technically. Though certain corners of the galaxy may see it differently. Honor wound certainly discuss things with Beth beforehand anyway, I'd wager. I cannot see that not happening.

About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.

And between you and me, that tacit, silent, approval is amusing. I mentioned upstream that Honor might feel what Beth would truly like to happen, although her hands might be tied, politically. That gives a new meaning to tacit approval.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:On the other hand, if she did indeed go rogue, against all we know of her character, then it's highly likely none of the other polities in the GA would side with her. It would still be a major headache for it because no one outside of it would believe their denials and disavowals, but Honor's ability to effect change would be severely limited without the resources of at least one of those entities.

My intent for this thread is less about Honor wanting to effect change than it is about her insatiable desire to decapitate the snake. Honor would sacrifice everything for the love of her people. Everything. Even the live if those around her. I am certain everyone would understand why she did it, and would live her for it. So, even though I disagree with her not getting any help, on the end it wouldn't matter. If she has Grand Fleet. Which she would if the MA is found.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Effectively, the message Honor is sending is that she has displaced the SLN as the enforcer of the Eridani Edict and beyond. Who is going to argue with "the enforcer of galactic policy" ?

Did anyone argue with the SL when they were the enforcer?

What does that have to do with going rogue?

If the GA decides that they want to enforce the EE, that would most likely be overt policy.

You missed my point. It isn't about the edict. It is about Honor drawing the line on what she will accept in the galaxy. I have a feeling that when the Spiders hatch, things in the galaxy are going to get down right ugly. Politics might handicap the GA's reaction. Not Honor's, not in the midst of such ugliness.

penny wrote:About that tacit approval. I can't quite agree with that. The galaxy knows that Honor has acted before against the Queen's approval. She is a hothead in certain eyes around the galaxy. I can't see failing to get the Queen's approval would stop Honor in the end. She wound also be saving the Queen's ass as well, from herself and her own government's policies.

Disagreeing with the Queen and arguing with the Queen are very different from going against the Queen in a public setting. We agree to the former, and that has happened a few times, such as when the Queen was being hotheaded, letting her Winton temper rule and failing to see the that the Havenites weren't Peeps any more. But not to the latter. Do you have an incident you're thinking of?

And between you and me, that tacit, silent, approval is amusing. I mentioned upstream that Honor might feel what Beth would truly like to happen, although her hands might be tied, politically. That gives a new meaning to tacit approval.

Indeed, but this is the point: Beth would simply not speak at all against Honor. She might feel compelled to not contradict her Government in official policy -- that was the case during the negotiations with Pritchart in the inter-war period. But she need not publicly support them either. And THAT is the silence that speaks volumes.

Maybe others not sensitive to the Empire's politics and Beth in particular may miss it. Honor wouldn't. She'd know she'd have the Queen's approval.

My intent for this thread is less about Honor wanting to effect change than it is about her insatiable desire to decapitate the snake. Honor would sacrifice everything for the love of her people. Everything. Even the live if those around her. I am certain everyone would understand why she did it, and would live her for it. So, even though I disagree with her not getting any help, on the end it wouldn't matter. If she has Grand Fleet. Which she would if the MA is found.

Yes and no.

I agree that Honor would want to decapitate the snake and protect loved ones. But I do not agree she'd have the Grand Fleet for this. She may be the Grand Admiral but there are a lot of very senior other full Admirals in that Fleet who would rightfully oppose her doing something that is clearly against policy.

I'm not talking about "we've found the snake, let's strike while the iron is hot and we can't wait for a round-trip back to Landing for orders." That implies they were out somewhere, not 40-minutes round-trip communication through the wormhole and the Hermes system while stationed in Trevor's Star. That would actually probably imply were searching for something, because Grand Fleet wouldn't happen to be in manoeuvres right next to Darius by accident. And therefore, if Grand Fleet is not out actively seeking for the snake, it stands to reason they are in close communication with the civilian leadership, which means Honor cannot suddenly go rogue with 250 capital ships.

If Honor isn't with the Grand Fleet, then my point stands: without the support of at least one of the GA members, she can't do much. Her flagship (even assuming she's returned to service) is not her personal yacht.

You missed my point. It isn't about the edict. It is about Honor drawing the line on what she will accept in the galaxy. I have a feeling that when the Spiders hatch, things in the galaxy are going to get down right ugly. Politics might handicap the GA's reaction. Not Honor's, not in the midst of such ugliness.

That makes some sense. I agree she may be one of the first to feel the chaos that is brewing is a sign not to be ignored, while the peace-time Admiralty may not.

But see the previous section: she can't do much without the support of some of the governments.

penny wrote:You missed my point. It isn't about the edict. It is about Honor drawing the line on what she will accept in the galaxy. I have a feeling that when the Spiders hatch, things in the galaxy are going to get down right ugly. Politics might handicap the GA's reaction. Not Honor's, not in the midst of such ugliness.

Leading the Free Range Topics is a post entitled "Mar 6, 2024 Facebook update from RFC". In it he is quoted as saying:

If you’ve been paying attention elsewhere, Marisa Wolf and I are currently ramping up to complete the Crown of Slaves/Alignment story arc following Eric’s death. As things stand now, the first novel in that project will probably launch the next generation of Harringtons’ story arc, as well. And Jacob Holo and I are simultaneously in development on the life of Edward Saganami while Jan Kotouč is working on the story of the Star Empire in the Silesian Confederacy.

I would point out in passing that as far as I am concerned I wrapped the original story arc I had planned for Honor herself in UNCOMPROMISING HONOR. Actually, she was supposed to have died before that point in my original plan for the series, but stuff happened that changed the storyline. I more or less brought her out of retirement in END IN FIRE, but she was right when she told Elizabeth 40 years of active duty was enough, at least for a while.

As I said, Honor is retired and will not be going rogue. However it would not surprise me if some people pin great hopes on that ending: "at least for a while".

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:You missed my point. It isn't about the edict. It is about Honor drawing the line on what she will accept in the galaxy. I have a feeling that when the Spiders hatch, things in the galaxy are going to get down right ugly. Politics might handicap the GA's reaction. Not Honor's, not in the midst of such ugliness.

Leading the Free Range Topics is a post entitled "Mar 6, 2024 Facebook update from RFC". In it he is quoted as saying:

If you’ve been paying attention elsewhere, Marisa Wolf and I are currently ramping up to complete the Crown of Slaves/Alignment story arc following Eric’s death. As things stand now, the first novel in that project will probably launch the next generation of Harringtons’ story arc, as well. And Jacob Holo and I are simultaneously in development on the life of Edward Saganami while Jan Kotouč is working on the story of the Star Empire in the Silesian Confederacy.

I would point out in passing that as far as I am concerned I wrapped the original story arc I had planned for Honor herself in UNCOMPROMISING HONOR. Actually, she was supposed to have died before that point in my original plan for the series, but stuff happened that changed the storyline. I more or less brought her out of retirement in END IN FIRE, but she was right when she told Elizabeth 40 years of active duty was enough, at least for a while.

As I said, Honor is retired and will not be going rogue. However it would not surprise me if some people pin great hopes on that ending: "at least for a while".

Honor has become a force of her own. That is why the author could not kill her off. And Honor herself has promised to put an end to the MAlign when found.

As I said, Honor is not retired. She is simply sleeping. Until the kiss of "malignant" death awakens her.