Sally goes rogue

penny wrote:

munroburton wrote:Honor was fully in command at Galton, they used her tactics and strategy. Lots of people died. A brand new character was the one pushing for a hyper in-shoot-hyper out attack which would have minimised Alliance casualties.

Honor was in command, yes. But her tactics were not fully adopted. Honor wanted to hyper in guns blazing and fire on the communications platforms immediately. That decision was over ruled. Why it was over ruled I haven't a clue. Why leave the enemy's communications intact?

It was Jaruwalski who had argued to employ the "Shoot on the forts as soon as we're out of hyper" tactics.

And while Honor agreed with her point of view, she hasn't been over ruled.

Honor herself decided not to employ this tactics, because:

To End In Fire wrote:The Grand Alliance is not the Alignment, and wouldn't act like the Alignment. Not because of what it owed to the Alignment, but because of what it owed to itself... and to history.

penny wrote:The crew that goes way way back. Of course her inner circle grew, but Henke and Hamish were never part of her crew. Besides, Honor and Henke probably have the most intimate inner circle just between the two of them. Honor's first kiss may have come from Henke. They were just young girls at the Academy. And young girls commonly experiment on each other for kissing. Can't get any more intimate than that. Well, other than her husband. But, within context, no crew will be as close as the crew aboard the little Light Cruiser. They were all Fearless and forged in the heat of battle.

Mike was her exec on Nike

If Sally goes Rogue then something in the galaxy has gone very very wrong -- or very very right depending on which side of the malignant fence you stand -- so Honor going rogue has touched the hearts of every ally she has ever made in the galaxy to date. Every officer in the RMN wants to go rogue with her, considering certain facts about a particular rat. Part of the GA, in the form of Grayson in some way, already has.

Would Henke stay out of it? So many officers will become a part of a roguish Grand Fleet that it might be difficult to disavow. But that kind of support disavows the notion that Honor has done something wrong.

Sometimes, the spirit of ones responsibility becomes greater than law. In the spirit, as it were.

Hmm... in the spirit? I won't dare go there.

penny wrote:If Sally goes Rogue then something in the galaxy has gone very very wrong -- or very very right depending on which side of the malignant fence you stand -- so Honor going rogue has touched the hearts of every ally she has ever made in the galaxy to date. Every officer in the RMN wants to go rogue with her, considering certain facts about a particular rat. Part of the GA, in the form of Grayson in some way, already has.

Would Henke stay out of it? So many officers will become a part of a roguish Grand Fleet that it might be difficult to disavow. But that kind of support disavows the notion that Honor has done something wrong.

If so many people agree with Honor, then why doesn't the Queen/Empress? Note that it is lack of support from Elizabeth, not Henke, that means that Honor has gone rogue in Manticore. Given Elizabeth's temper, why would she ever forgive Honor or the people that joined her?

In various posts you have been emphatic that both Elizabeth and Honor are irreplaceable, so now you are pitting the irresistible force against the immovable object to see if one or both are destroyed.

Of course to be truly rogue Honor would have to act against the Protector also.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:If Sally goes Rogue then something in the galaxy has gone very very wrong -- or very very right depending on which side of the malignant fence you stand -- so Honor going rogue has touched the hearts of every ally she has ever made in the galaxy to date. Every officer in the RMN wants to go rogue with her, considering certain facts about a particular rat. Part of the GA, in the form of Grayson in some way, already has.

Would Henke stay out of it? So many officers will become a part of a roguish Grand Fleet that it might be difficult to disavow. But that kind of support disavows the notion that Honor has done something wrong.

If so many people agree with Honor, then why doesn't the Queen/Empress? Note that it is lack of support from Elizabeth, not Henke, that means that Honor has gone rogue in Manticore. Given Elizabeth's temper, why would she ever forgive Honor or the people that joined her?

In various posts you have been emphatic that both Elizabeth and Honor are irreplaceable, so now you are pitting the irresistible force against the immovable object to see if one or both are destroyed.

Of course to be truly rogue Honor would have to act against the Protector also.

You didn't hit a single nail on the head. I hope you didn't smash your finger.

Honor has always had Elizabeth's blessings and support. It was always Elizabeth's government... well, certain intransigent civilian representatives who begrudged Honor their support. Regardless, Beth's power would be constrained -- and her hands tied -- by politics. Politics!!!!

It would have been the same thing had Honor become fed up with the SL long before Beth and the Admiralty and wanted to attack them much sooner. Politics may have screamed the loudest.

Unless Honor is specifically going rogue against the Protector and or Grayson, I doubt that she can ever truly go rogue, in their eyes. Honor would always have the Protector's blessings. Especially if the rat is as big as the rat on Kill Bill! Like that rat, this rat requires Hattori Hanzō steel.

penny wrote:Honor has always had Elizabeth's blessings and support. It was always Elizabeth's government... well, certain intransigent civilian representatives who begrudged Honor their support. Regardless, Beth's power would be constrained -- and her hands tied -- by politics. Politics!!!!

It would have been the same thing had Honor become fed up with the SL long before Beth and the Admiralty and wanted to attack them much sooner. Politics may have screamed the loudest.

Unless Honor is specifically going rogue against the Protector and or Grayson, I doubt that she can ever truly go rogue, in their eyes.

Then we are agreed and I do not know what you have been going on about. Honor has not gone rogue and never will go rogue; because she will always work in the best interests of the Queen and the Protector. Doing things that politicians do not like has never been the definition of "going rogue".

tlb wrote:Then we are agreed and I do not know what you have been going on about. Honor has not gone rogue and never will go rogue; because she will always work in the best interests of the Queen and the Protector. Doing things that politicians do not like has never been the definition of "going rogue".

That reads, even if she disagrees with Queen's government, she wouldn't harm the Queen by going rogue.

And as others have said, even if she did, the rest of the Galaxy would assume she did have the Queen's tacit approval, so she would not be seen as rogue. The Government wouldn't be believed if they disavow her.

In other words, Honor doesn't go rogue; she changes the policy.

tlb wrote:Then we are agreed and I do not know what you have been going on about. Honor has not gone rogue and never will go rogue; because she will always work in the best interests of the Queen and the Protector. Doing things that politicians do not like has never been the definition of "going rogue".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That reads, even if she disagrees with Queen's government, she wouldn't harm the Queen by going rogue.

And as others have said, even if she did, the rest of the Galaxy would assume she did have the Queen's tacit approval, so she would not be seen as rogue. The Government wouldn't be believed if they disavow her.

In other words, Honor doesn't go rogue; she changes the policy.

I suppose it could be read that way, but I am not sure there is a good example of that happening. Only during the two times that Sir Edward Janacek was First lord of the Admiralty was she even in political conflict with the Officer in charge of Naval conduct; in both cases she simply did her job to the best of her ability.

Note that in the case of both Grayson and Manticore, the Naval Officers swear an oath to the head of government: the Protector and the Queen respectively. In chapter 3 of Field of Dishonor there is the following statement:

All of that was true and important, yet it was almost inconsequential to Honor. Elizabeth III was the woman to whom she'd sworn her loyalty as an officer and her fealty as a countess. She was the Star Kingdom of Manticore to Honor Harrington. Not an infallible, superior being to be venerated, but a living, sometimes quirky, occasionally exasperating human being who nonetheless represented all Honor insisted her kingdom be. Honor was sworn to lay down her life in the Crown's service, and while she had no particular inclination toward martyrdom, it was a vast relief to know Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette Winton was worthy of that oath.

Again, politics oftentimes haphazardly drive policy and constrains response. Saying that Honor can not truly go rogue is preposterous. Although I agree that the powers that be would ultimately support her.

Something occurred to me. Honor should be able to feel Beth's true emotions when discussing a subject. Beth may say she doesn't want Honor to attack a system, but Honor may be able to feel Beth's true desires.

tlb wrote:I suppose it could be read that way, but I am not sure there is a good example of that happening. Only during the two times that Sir Edward Janacek was First lord of the Admiralty was she even in political conflict with the Officer in charge of Naval conduct; in both cases she simply did her job to the best of her ability.

And when she was put on half-pay, she went to do policy in the House of Lords. She didn't go rogue.

She also did go to Grayson often and got intelligence from the GSN and the Protector. Being a citizen of two nations and a Fleet Admiral in their respective two navies, she can always go to the one that doesn't have a hostile government to her, and continue the policies she believes are correct from there. In the case of Grayson, the Protector has far more control over policy than the Queen/Empress does.

And that's not to mention the other three governments where she has a considerable amount of influence with: Haven, Beowulf, and the Andermani. She can talk to her brother, to Theisman, or to von Habenstrage and those have the ears of their respective political leaders. We haven't seen yet a scene where she has an audience with Anderman himself, but if she asked for it, she'd probably get it.

And that was my point: she'd have the backing of likely three, probably four of the most powerful nations in the Galaxy, so no one would believe the fifth wouldn't be on-board. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter because would have the backing of those three-or-four nations' policy-makers.