SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

tlb wrote:Perhaps you were thinking of the laser pinch fusion reactor such as a shuttle has, rather than the gravity compression fusion reactor that a starship has. Frankly, I do not know why the laser pinch fusion is never used in a missile; the only options we have seen are capacitor power or the new mini-reactor (which the Malign do not have).

I don't think we actually know the technology behind the microfusion reactors. But I wouldn't be surprise if the RMN's microfusion reactors are laser pinch designs -- just far smaller ones that anybody else has made.

I say that because it seems like GRAVMAK (gravity & magnetic confinement) reactors used by full up starships have efficiency issues scaling down into even something as large as a LAC -- that's the gap that the advanced fission piles fit into. (And why they can't compete with fusion even in a small destroyer). Scaling that tech down into a missile seems less plausible than scaling down the already smaller (yet lower output) laser pinch fusion.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Perhaps you were thinking of the laser pinch fusion reactor such as a shuttle has, rather than the gravity compression fusion reactor that a starship has. Frankly, I do not know why the laser pinch fusion is never used in a missile; the only options we have seen are capacitor power or the new mini-reactor (which the Malign do not have).

I don't think we actually know the technology behind the microfusion reactors. But I wouldn't be surprise if the RMN's microfusion reactors are laser pinch designs -- just far smaller ones that anybody else has made.

I say that because it seems like GRAVMAK (gravity & magnetic confinement) reactors used by full up starships have efficiency issues scaling down into even something as large as a LAC -- that's the gap that the advanced fission piles fit into. (And why they can't compete with fusion even in a small destroyer). Scaling that tech down into a missile seems less plausible than scaling down the already smaller (yet lower output) laser pinch fusion.

I can't find the older RFC quotes on the Gtorp, But I'm quite certain, it had a full up fusions reactor - remember Warships have 2 reactors - each in the 3.5-5 Ton range - Old LACS also had a single Grav pinch reactor, which limited their ability to carry anything but the most limited armaments.

The weapon of the Grav torpedo is a lt. Cruiser grade Graser - a ~1-1.5 Ton weapon. So a Graser torp, with spider drive, controls, coms and chassis is going to be at least in the 2-2.5 Kton range, plus the mass of the powerplant.

The laser pinch power plants are fine in a .5Kton Assault shuttle (Pinnaces are ~250ton). And Manty Micro fusion plants are good for 100-500 Kton missiles and Drones, but we're talking about a missile at least 5x that size. The only reactor in that range is going to be the GravMAK, which makes a Grav torp huge (6-8Ktons). And remember, a Grav torp is so large, only 3 could be carried externally by each of the ~5Mtons Sharks - so these are large weapons.

tlb wrote:Perhaps you were thinking of the laser pinch fusion reactor such as a shuttle has, rather than the gravity compression fusion reactor that a starship has. Frankly, I do not know why the laser pinch fusion is never used in a missile; the only options we have seen are capacitor power or the new mini-reactor (which the Malign do not have).

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think we actually know the technology behind the microfusion reactors. But I wouldn't be surprise if the RMN's microfusion reactors are laser pinch designs -- just far smaller ones that anybody else has made.

I say that because it seems like GRAVMAK (gravity & magnetic confinement) reactors used by full up starships have efficiency issues scaling down into even something as large as a LAC -- that's the gap that the advanced fission piles fit into. (And why they can't compete with fusion even in a small destroyer). Scaling that tech down into a missile seems less plausible than scaling down the already smaller (yet lower output) laser pinch fusion.

Theemile wrote:I can't find the older RFC quotes on the Gtorp, But I'm quite certain, it had a full up fusions reactor - remember Warships have 2 reactors - each in the 3.5-5 Ton range - Old LACS also had a single Grav pinch reactor, which limited their ability to carry anything but the most limited armaments.

The weapon of the Grav torpedo is a lt. Cruiser grade Graser - a ~1-1.5 Ton weapon. So a Graser torp, with spider drive, controls, coms and chassis is going to be at least in the 2-2.5 Kton range, plus the mass of the powerplant.

The laser pinch power plants are fine in a .5Kton Assault shuttle (Pinnaces are ~250ton). And Manty Micro fusion plants are good for 100-500 Kton missiles and Drones, but we're talking about a missile at least 5x that size. The only reactor in that range is going to be the GravMAK, which makes a Grav torp huge (6-8Ktons). And remember, a Grav torp is so large, only 3 could be carried externally by each of the ~5Mtons Sharks - so these are large weapons.

Please take another look into Uncompromising Honor for the description of the Silver Bullet, which we know is bigger than the torpedo and somewhat bigger than the Ghost Rider platform (which requires the mini-reactor). UH clearly states that it has a solar panel to keep the capacitors topped off, which seems to me to be incompatible with what you are saying.

Do you have text for the weight of the torpedo? I do not see in Mission of Honor a statement about the number of torpedoes that a Shark could carry; but that might be a matter of mission need, rather than size. Is the graser carried by a Shrike cruiser grade? Because I found this statement:

The power of the torpedo's graser wasn't remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes

tlb wrote:UH clearly states that it has a solar panel to keep the capacitors topped off, which seems to me to be incompatible with what you are saying.

Not necessarily, if they then use the capacitors to light off the fusion-reactor when they go active. I can't remember if this was the case.

tlb wrote:UH clearly states that it has a solar panel to keep the capacitors topped off, which seems to me to be incompatible with what you are saying.

Joat42 wrote:Not necessarily, if they then use the capacitors to light off the fusion-reactor when they go active. I can't remember if this was the case.

If the reactor is only being fired up to power the graser, then it is superfluous; because that means there is enough power in the capacitors to fire the graser by themselves. I expect that the reason you cannot remember is because a fusion reactor is not mentioned.

tlb wrote:Please take another look into Uncompromising Honor for the description of the Silver Bullet, which we know is bigger than the torpedo and somewhat bigger than the Ghost Rider platform (which requires the mini-reactor). UH clearly states that it has a solar panel to keep the capacitors topped off, which seems to me to be incompatible with what you are saying.

Do you have text for the weight of the torpedo? I do not see in Mission of Honor a statement about the number of torpedoes that a Shark could carry; but that might be a matter of mission need, rather than size. Is the graser carried by a Shrike cruiser grade? Because I found this statement:

The power of the torpedo's graser wasn't remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes

No text on weight, just the massive size. The Text states the Graser is Cruiser Grade, though David Later states Lt. Cruiser grade. That would put it in the 40-80 CM range, not the 150 CM BC spinal graser on the Shrike

Also, think about energy levels here - a normal graser fires for a few milliseconds. The Gtorp fires for 60+ times that. the Ring capacitors in a Shrike can only fire the Graser 6-7 times in an engagement according to UH, while the average Ring Capacitor can only power a CA broadside graser 2-3 times when removed from ship power according to SotS. That's a lot of power from a capacitor system.

Was the tech starting to get schizophrenic then?

tlb wrote:Please take another look into Uncompromising Honor for the description of the Silver Bullet, which we know is bigger than the torpedo and somewhat bigger than the Ghost Rider platform (which requires the mini-reactor). UH clearly states that it has a solar panel to keep the capacitors topped off, which seems to me to be incompatible with what you are saying.

Do you have text for the weight of the torpedo? I do not see in Mission of Honor a statement about the number of torpedoes that a Shark could carry; but that might be a matter of mission need, rather than size. Is the graser carried by a Shrike cruiser grade? Because I found this statement:

The power of the torpedo's graser wasn't remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes

Theemile wrote:No text on weight, just the massive size. The Text states the Graser is Cruiser Grade, though David Later states Lt. Cruiser grade. That would put it in the 40-80 CM range, not the 150 CM BC spinal graser on the Shrike

Also, think about energy levels here - a normal graser fires for a few milliseconds. The Gtorp fires for 60+ times that. the Ring capacitors in a Shrike can only fire the Graser 6-7 times in an engagement according to UH, while the average Ring Capacitor can only power a CA broadside graser 2-3 times when removed from ship power according to SotS. That's a lot of power from a capacitor system.

Was the tech starting to get schizophrenic then?

I have no reason to think that this is relevant, but I remember reading that a graser can fire on reduced power, unlike an X-ray laser. The reason I remember this is that it never made sense to me that x-ray laser could not do so if a graser could.

One easy and plausible explanation is that the ship's capacitors were not sized for long term fire in isolation, while the torpedo's capacitors were; so the CA broadside graser comes with a AAA-size capacitor bank, while the torpedo comes with a D-size bank.

tlb wrote:I have no reason to think that this is relevant, but I remember reading that a graser can fire on reduced power, unlike an X-ray laser. The reason I remember this is that it never made sense to me that x-ray laser could not do so if a graser could.

One easy and plausible explanation is that the ship's capacitors were not sized for long term fire in isolation, while the torpedo's capacitors were; so the CA broadside graser comes with a AAA-size capacitor bank, while the torpedo comes with a D-size bank.

Agreed, but that would be a huge mass in capacitors to fire a Graser 60+ times. We're talking one of those old 12 volt lantern batteries vs that AAA, not the D Cell.

tlb wrote:I have no reason to think that this is relevant, but I remember reading that a graser can fire on reduced power, unlike an X-ray laser. The reason I remember this is that it never made sense to me that x-ray laser could not do so if a graser could.

One easy and plausible explanation is that the ship's capacitors were not sized for long term fire in isolation, while the torpedo's capacitors were; so the CA broadside graser comes with a AAA-size capacitor bank, while the torpedo comes with a D-size bank.

Theemile wrote:Agreed, but that would be a huge mass in capacitors to fire a Graser 60+ times. We're talking one of those old 12 volt lantern batteries vs that AAA, not the D Cell.

I don't mind if we compare it to a 12 volt car battery, since I don't think that we can accurately say at what point it would be more massive than a full size ship's fusion reactor.

kzt wrote:

tlb wrote:If the LD's are used as commerce raiders, this would mainly work by posting at the hyperlimit near the closest approach to a planet and blasting anything that arrives when they are most vulnerable. Anyone moving in hyperspace will either be traveling with a wedge or sails. In the case of sails, the LD has to be under sails also; so not invisible. in the case of a wedge, there is a possibility of a passing shot; but it is limited by the decreased detection ability compared to normal space. I hope we will soon see what the author choses to do.

You don’t need LDs for that. You can just use merchant ships to scatter graser torps around the planet at the hyperlimit emergence points where they wait for customers.

joat42 wrote:You don't need graser torps for that, any kind of missile that can loiter works.

I think I'm changing my views on the LD's, I think the better analogy is that they are stealth-bombers, get in unseen, drop payload, get out unseen. They aren't intended to be used in a stand-up fight but they have the capability to mount some defense when needed. This also play into the mentality the MAlign has, strike from the shadows.

Interesting analogy.

At any rate, the submarine analogy is not considered correctly.

The most consistent error that is made when applying the analogy is in not realizing that the analogy needs to be applied across the board. The most important and remarkable achievement that subs allowed -- and that truth still stands -- was to make it possible to get a substantial force close to the enemy. Period. Undetected, or undetectable, is a plus.

But, in WWII the subs did not have reliable firepower. Sometimes the torpedoes did not detonate when contacting the ship. Their delivery system was suspect as well, requiring a lot of luck along with a fair amount of skill. Their firepower was also nowhere nearly as effective as it is with the LDs. It certainly won't require several torpedoes to destroy a ship that is a sitting duck.

Comparatively, as far as the analogy goes, the MA's weaponry is more reliable. They will hit their targets if said targets are completely oblivious as they quite oftentimes were historically. The g-torps will not fail to detonate and they will deliver a devastating payload. A payload that even exceeds the GA's ability to produce. For a much more accurate and analogous account, the subs of WWII were effectively operating in energy range!

All of this is why I say that the maiden voyages of the LDs are going to be devastating, and it is also why I say they will have varying missions.

BUT! If the subs of WWII had had reliable and effective torpedoes and a reliable delivery system? The game would have been OVER!