Sally goes rogue

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:What, if any, state would officially sponsor her and her fleet? Torch?

Traditionally states will sponsor an individual with a ship by giving them a Letter of Marque, making them a privateer in the service of that nation. This empowers them to act against any nation that is at war with the issuing state.

Without such a letter an individual is simply a pirate.

A Letter of Marque was eliminated as an acceptable practice in our universe by the Hague Convention of 1907.

That is part and parcel of why I suggested that Torch could, and would, probably even should sponsor her. I have always said that the Kingdom of Torch is going to get a visit on the eve of the voyage of the LDs. Torch would be crazy not to sponsor Honor and her fleet. If only for the added protection. Besides, in this universe, Torch may be party to why Honor has gone rogue in the first place. Torch was attacked in the opening phases of the MAN's campaigns against the galaxy. Honor may receive that Letter of Marque after the fact.

However, even in our universe in spite of the Hague Convention, aren't Letters of Marque skirted? Which is the perfect lead-in to the train of thought that is responsible for this entire thread ...

Elon Musk is a private citizen richer than the avarice of greed who was instrumental against Putin's war with Ukraine. Musk's technology was responsible for communications.

He is also building a spaceship to go on a mission to Mars. His technology can put weapons in space. Perhaps in time to counter Putin's communications killing nuclear bomb deployed in orbit.

And if a multi-billionaire had built the biggest and baddest battleship that weighed in even larger than the Yamato, and she sailed into the biggest naval battle in history (by way of Cape Horn since she wouldn't fit in the Panama Canal), I am sure the US Navy would have been glad to see her.

There is a gray area that can become any color that a state sponsor is willing to paint it.

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penny wrote:And if a multi-billionaire had built the biggest and baddest battleship that weighed in even larger than the Yamato, and she sailed into the biggest naval battle in history (by way of Cape Cod since she wouldn't fit in the Panama Canal), I am sure the US Navy would have been glad to see her.

There is a gray area that can become any color that a state sponsor is willing to paint it.

If that multi-billionaire were living between WWI and WWII to do this, then I expect the US would give thanks and take control. A ship would not be effective without coordination.

A multi-billionaire building a battleship (of whatever size) after WWII would be wasting their money. It is true that US battleships have been used as gun platforms (with a few missiles thrown in) since WWII, but that is mainly because they already existed.

I am sorry that you have contributed to the worldwide perception that citizens of the USA do not know geography.

PS: If Honor were operating under a Letter of Marque from Torch, then she would not be a rogue force (unless she violated Torch restrictions). However she might be in conflict with the laws of Manticore or Grayson concerning the conduct of members of their navies.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:And if a multi-billionaire had built the biggest and baddest battleship that weighed in even larger than the Yamato, and she sailed into the biggest naval battle in history (by way of Cape Cod since she wouldn't fit in the Panama Canal), I am sure the US Navy would have been glad to see her.

There is a gray area that can become any color that a state sponsor is willing to paint it.

If that multi-billionaire were living between WWI and WWII to do this, then I expect the US would give thanks and take control. A ship would not be effective without coordination.

A multi-billionaire building a battleship (of whatever size) after WWII would be wasting their money. It is true that US battleships have been used as gun platforms (with a few missiles thrown in) since WWII, but that is mainly because they already existed.

I am sorry that you have contributed to the worldwide perception that citizens of the USA do not know geography.

PS: If Honor were operating under a Letter of Marque from Torch, then she would not be a rogue force (unless she violated Torch restrictions). However she might be in conflict with the laws of Manticore or Grayson concerning the conduct of members of their navies.

Huh? Geography?? Oh!!! Do forgive me. That should have read Cape Horn! I have Cape Cod on my brain with me constantly thinking about an upcoming and long anticipated trip back to Martha's Vineyard. I will correct it upstream.

But that has been my point all along. A Letter of Marque is essentially a sponsor. A sponsor places everything above board and legal. Although, it could still be considered going rogue if certain units and officers were whisked away from their posts and official duties. Whether or not any of those officers and their units will cause any government to act unfavorably upon Honor knowing what she is planning and who and what she is up against is another story.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Doing it again just for giggles... illegal.

penny wrote:I am hard-pressed to imagine a universe where the Salamander has gone rogue to be a laughing, or a giggling, matter.

What amount of force is she legally allowed to command as a Manticoran Lord?

On Grayson, the law seems to apply to ground units and naval units in the system. And not as an adjunct to the assets of a citizen of another planet.

Jonathan_S was simply pointing out that if Honor goes rogue for whatever reason (including just for the laughs), then she has made herself an outlaw.

Unlike Grayson, there is no expectation of a Manticoran Lord maintaining an army or navy. If she were to hire professionals for protection, then the only limitation is probably her wealth. But if she uses those men in an unsanctioned offense, then she is an outlaw and that wealth could be seized and she and all her personnel put in prison.

Theemile made the remark, not Jonathan_S.

Again, that is my point. See my post one click upstream.

Do note that going to prison or losing ones entire fortune will not stop someone who has been pushed to the point of going rogue to protect ones loved ones, Queen and Country. Also, the act is not unheard of, and the notion certainly would not set a precedent. Loyal and patriotic officers oftentimes do what needs to be done, and they write home to their governments in advance to giving them a warning of what is coming and to accept and even recommend an anticipated disavowment. Michele Henke did so at one point. And so did Terekov. Nor would the officers who choose to follow care about what is personally at stake compared to the alternative of letting the evildoers / enemy go on unchecked and in doing so allow more of their loved ones to die.

An officer taking themselves rogue might, or might not, be in violation of their oath of service (it'd depend on the rules around resignation from service)

An officer convincing their crew to go rouge with them is likely guilty of significant offenses against their military's code of justice. (And the crew would likely be guilty of desertion or other such charges)

And an office taking their ships with them when they go rogue would be guilty of the grandest of theft; among other offenses -- as would the crew that followed them. (And on a practical level that force would only be effective for a relatively short time as they wouldn't easily be able to get compatible ammo, spare/replacement parts, etc.)


Another system would seem to risk the wrath of the officer's former government should they take in and give their sanction to the operation of that stolen fleet.
(Or if they didn't suffer that wrath then it'd be blatantly obvious that this "going rogue" was at minimum de-facto sanctioned by the original government. Which would tend to leave them on the hook and taking blame for any actions the force takes; since by failing to do anything about it they're clearly being complicit in its existence)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:I was allowing for the possibility that it might be different for a Steadholder who has lost their status as a Key. Kicked out of the Conclave of Steadholders. A Key can be impeached by a majority vote of at least forty-four of its members.

After Honor has been impeached and is no longer a Steadholder, would she still be subject to that limitation? At any rate, I am sure Honor would be willing to surrender her status, officially, if necessary. If necessary, Honor would give up everything to protect Grayson and to shield Grayson from any political fallout.

I don't think we're aware of any Grayson laws or constitutional limits on a private citizen hiring armed security or guards. But those armed folks would have no legal protections for actions they took at the instruction of the private citizen -- not like the Steadholer's 50 personal guards do.

And of course interstellar law still applies if you take armed actions against forces, citizens, or systems outside your own.

Historically the Honorverse had naval mercenaries, and I don't recall hearing of any law that prohibited them (unlike here on Earth where the 1865 Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law effectively became incorporated as international law abolishing Privateering. Though I don't think even that actually forbids naval military contractors; as long as they aren't self-financing through the capture of enemy ships and cargo).

But even if naval mercenaries are still legal in the modern day Honorverse they'd still need to be hired by a recognized government and need to follow interstellar law; lest somebody more powerful take an interest in curbing their bad behavior (possibly fatally)

Mercenaries are a part of Honorverse Politics in 1920 PD - The PNiE was acting as mercenaries, and was working as a mercenary force registered in the Mercenary Clearing house on Mesa.

However, some polities didn't allow private military forces in the space (Silesia)... but space is big.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think we're aware of any Grayson laws or constitutional limits on a private citizen hiring armed security or guards. But those armed folks would have no legal protections for actions they took at the instruction of the private citizen -- not like the Steadholer's 50 personal guards do.

And of course interstellar law still applies if you take armed actions against forces, citizens, or systems outside your own.

Historically the Honorverse had naval mercenaries, and I don't recall hearing of any law that prohibited them (unlike here on Earth where the 1865 Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law effectively became incorporated as international law abolishing Privateering. Though I don't think even that actually forbids naval military contractors; as long as they aren't self-financing through the capture of enemy ships and cargo).

But even if naval mercenaries are still legal in the modern day Honorverse they'd still need to be hired by a recognized government and need to follow interstellar law; lest somebody more powerful take an interest in curbing their bad behavior (possibly fatally)

Mercenaries are a part of Honorverse Politics in 1920 PD - The PNiE was acting as mercenaries, and was working as a mercenary force registered in the Mercenary Clearing house on Mesa.

However, some polities didn't allow private military forces in the space (Silesia)... but space is big.

Good point - though I'm not sure we can necessarily look to the PNE to judge the general legality of mercenaries.

After all, they were being used in a MAlign attempt at an illegal genocide mission against Torch -- already blatantly illegal; so I doubt any further illegality around hiring of mercs would both either side in that little contract.

At this point, if Honor goes rogue I imagine it would be by becoming the Secretary-General of the GA. 20-year terms, no term limits, the electorate consists of her good friend Protector Benjamin, her good friend Empress Elizabeth and her good friend President Pritchart.

Are you a Solarian? Some of them definitely believe the whole GA is made up of rogue star nations. Guess who they think rules it all from the spotlit shadows anyway.

A huge fleet can't exist in isolation. It isn't just the active warships, but the whole support structure.
Honor's fleet is just the tip of the spear. Pirates are limited in their operations by lack of spares, service facilities and reammunition. With the tech gurus at Bolthole unavailable to her, her fleet would become relatively obsolescent.
Unless she carried the GA with her, any insurrection would eventually fizzle out.

Daryl wrote:A huge fleet can't exist in isolation. It isn't just the active warships, but the whole support structure.
Honor's fleet is just the tip of the spear. Pirates are limited in their operations by lack of spares, service facilities and reammunition. With the tech gurus at Bolthole unavailable to her, her fleet would become relatively obsolescent.
Unless she carried the GA with her, any insurrection would eventually fizzle out.

You got the wrong idea. A huge fleet can exist in isolation long enough. They do that every time they go out on a mission. However, Sally has gone rogue for one very particular mission. She already knows how much firepower she needs. She is going to kick the back door in in some system. Sally intends to make this a very short and very victorious engagement. She isn't interested in going rogue as a career.

And about going rogue. I was going to broach this in another post but what the heck. Honor is the best tactician and strategist in the galaxy in my book. She has also established herself at the top of the pile as far as political strategy as well. Having had frequent sorties with Beth. Honor has come to know politics quite well. And I have no doubt that she can figure out the best way to achieve her goals without burning any bridges.

For instance, would it be considered going rogue if she "commandeered" certain units to make an unscheduled visit to a system before the rats launched the LDs? When units are commandeered, does not the crew come with it?

I am also unsure if her crew would be punished. Honor would claim they didn't know the mission was off the books. No one would ever question Honor or her integrity and loyalty. She can simply ask for forgiveness or disavowment later, as long as the mission was a success.