Sally goes rogue

ALTER SALLY GOES ROGUE VERSE

What if, after Honor attacked the Sol System, circumstances caused her to go rogue? How would that scenario change the dynamics of the Honorverse?

What if Honor turned into her own entity who began to deliver her own form of justice, as did the Ballroom? Would governments need to disavow her actions while secretly funding and supporting her? Would she be supplied with an unofficial fleet, essentially on a much larger scale than Admiral Bachfish?

Would someone please refresh my memory? What are the political limitations imposed by Grayson about owning your own personal fleet? Would it matter if she owned the fleet in her Steadholder personna, her personna as a Key, or her personna (credentials) in the Royal Manticoran Navy? Or, as her plain Jane personna of being Honor Harrington in a tail of four cities?

Sally of the Spaceways? shrug

It is odd to consider that perhaps the Ballroom would end up feeding Honor intel. Even as a rogue element she'd get support from several governments and factions.

Question: Does Honor have quadruple citizenship? Beowulf. Sphinx. Manticore. Grayson.

Since I am certain someone will ask? I dunno! Perhaps Hamish didn't make it when he raced to the Sol System to save Honor from herself.

I know a slew of officers who would go rogue with her. The entire Elysian Space Navy will reform. With better accomodations. LOL

Hmm… why not the ESN?

So how would that change things? OK, Honor goes rogue. Honor goes rogue, because the duties of her uniform limits her response… to a particular… situation … that has “arisen.” The Alliance's hands are tied in dealing with this treacherous enemy. This particular nut calls for the Salamander to go rogue and book a flight aboard the latest death ride.

Funding: State sponsored? And creative. Honor could make money by operating the most secure “escort service” in the galaxy. On one single run, she could make a fortune. The Emperor might finally consider a virgin voyage outside of the Anderman Empire. LoL

Her convoys would be considered a mobile Fort Knox. Like a lawyer that can charge a million dollars a case. Honor can make a fortune off of one very important run.

What, if any, state would officially sponsor her and her fleet? Torch?

penny wrote:Question: Does Honor have quadruple citizenship? Beowulf. Sphinx. Manticore. Grayson.

Honor has dual citizenship, she is not a citizen of Beowulf. Manticore, Sphinx and Gryphon (and later San Martin) are a single political entity (the Star Kingdom of Manticore), so that is just one citizenship.

penny wrote:Would someone please refresh my memory? What are the political limitations imposed by Grayson about owning your own personal fleet? Would it matter if she owned the fleet in her Steadholder personna, her personna as a Key, or her personna (credentials) in the Royal Manticoran Navy? Or, as her plain Jane personna of being Honor Harrington in a tail of four cities?

After winning the Grayson Civil War Benjamin the Great got a written constitution that "restricted the size of the Keys' personal guards" [FiE]

And we get more details in AoV

Ashes of Victory - Ch. wrote:Every armsman in the service of Harrington Steading answered to Honor in one way or another, but most did so only indirectly, through the administrative machinery of her steading's police forces. Only fifty were her personal liege men, sworn to her service, and not the steading's. Any order she gave those fifty men had the force of law, so long as it did not violate the Constitution, and the fact that she'd given it shielded them from any consequences for having obeyed even if it did. She could be held responsible for it; they could not, but those fifty were the only personal force Steadholder Harrington was permitted.
Steadholders might command other military forces from within the chain of command of the Grayson Army or Navy, but to satisfy the Constitution, the command of those forces must be lodged in the established Grayson military with the specific approval of the planet's ruler. And Protector Benjamin IX had not said a word about anything called "the Elysian Space Navy."

And she'd be equally covered when commanding forces assigned to her by any f her governments or government positions (even if those governments aren't Grayson - at least that seems to be the way the Constitution is being interpreted).

So ships and personnel she commands in her role as a member of the RMN are also fine. As would be any forces she might have actual or honorary command of in her persona as a Manticoran Lord (if, for example, a Duchess were considered head of their Duchy's police force. No idea if they are; but it'd be okay with the Grayson constitution if they were -- just like it's okay that she's the head of the larger Harrington Steading Guard; the Steading's police force)

penny wrote:What, if any, state would officially sponsor her and her fleet? Torch?

Traditionally states will sponsor an individual with a ship by giving them a Letter of Marque, making them a privateer in the service of that nation. This empowers them to act against any nation that is at war with the issuing state.

Without such a letter an individual is simply a pirate.

A Letter of Marque was eliminated as an acceptable practice in our universe by the Hague Convention of 1907.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Would someone please refresh my memory? What are the political limitations imposed by Grayson about owning your own personal fleet? Would it matter if she owned the fleet in her Steadholder personna, her personna as a Key, or her personna (credentials) in the Royal Manticoran Navy? Or, as her plain Jane personna of being Honor Harrington in a tail of four cities?

After winning the Grayson Civil War Benjamin the Great got a written constitution that "restricted the size of the Keys' personal guards" [FiE]

And we get more details in AoV

Ashes of Victory - Ch. wrote:Every armsman in the service of Harrington Steading answered to Honor in one way or another, but most did so only indirectly, through the administrative machinery of her steading's police forces. Only fifty were her personal liege men, sworn to her service, and not the steading's. Any order she gave those fifty men had the force of law, so long as it did not violate the Constitution, and the fact that she'd given it shielded them from any consequences for having obeyed even if it did. She could be held responsible for it; they could not, but those fifty were the only personal force Steadholder Harrington was permitted.
Steadholders might command other military forces from within the chain of command of the Grayson Army or Navy, but to satisfy the Constitution, the command of those forces must be lodged in the established Grayson military with the specific approval of the planet's ruler. And Protector Benjamin IX had not said a word about anything called "the Elysian Space Navy."

And she'd be equally covered when commanding forces assigned to her by any f her governments or government positions (even if those governments aren't Grayson - at least that seems to be the way the Constitution is being interpreted).

So ships and personnel she commands in her role as a member of the RMN are also fine. As would be any forces she might have actual or honorary command of in her persona as a Manticoran Lord (if, for example, a Duchess were considered head of their Duchy's police force. No idea if they are; but it'd be okay with the Grayson constitution if they were -- just like it's okay that she's the head of the larger Harrington Steading Guard; the Steading's police force)

And this was the reason the Elysian Space navy was absorbed into the Protector's Own forces (as his new personal space navy). As his leige man and protector, It was claimed that Honor had taken those ships in his name, and was acting in his interest, giving the whole thing a blanket of legal cover (because she was not in a position to ask his permission first.)

Doing it again just for giggles... illegal.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Would someone please refresh my memory? What are the political limitations imposed by Grayson about owning your own personal fleet? Would it matter if she owned the fleet in her Steadholder personna, her personna as a Key, or her personna (credentials) in the Royal Manticoran Navy? Or, as her plain Jane personna of being Honor Harrington in a tail of four cities?

After winning the Grayson Civil War Benjamin the Great got a written constitution that "restricted the size of the Keys' personal guards" [FiE]

And we get more details in AoV

Ashes of Victory - Ch. wrote:Every armsman in the service of Harrington Steading answered to Honor in one way or another, but most did so only indirectly, through the administrative machinery of her steading's police forces. Only fifty were her personal liege men, sworn to her service, and not the steading's. Any order she gave those fifty men had the force of law, so long as it did not violate the Constitution, and the fact that she'd given it shielded them from any consequences for having obeyed even if it did. She could be held responsible for it; they could not, but those fifty were the only personal force Steadholder Harrington was permitted.
Steadholders might command other military forces from within the chain of command of the Grayson Army or Navy, but to satisfy the Constitution, the command of those forces must be lodged in the established Grayson military with the specific approval of the planet's ruler. And Protector Benjamin IX had not said a word about anything called "the Elysian Space Navy."

And she'd be equally covered when commanding forces assigned to her by any f her governments or government positions (even if those governments aren't Grayson - at least that seems to be the way the Constitution is being interpreted).

So ships and personnel she commands in her role as a member of the RMN are also fine. As would be any forces she might have actual or honorary command of in her persona as a Manticoran Lord (if, for example, a Duchess were considered head of their Duchy's police force. No idea if they are; but it'd be okay with the Grayson constitution if they were -- just like it's okay that she's the head of the larger Harrington Steading Guard; the Steading's police force)

Thanks for the detail, Jonathan! Very nice.

I was allowing for the possibility that it might be different for a Steadholder who has lost their status as a Key. Kicked out of the Conclave of Steadholders. A Key can be impeached by a majority vote of at least forty-four of its members.

After Honor has been impeached and is no longer a Steadholder, would she still be subject to that limitation? At any rate, I am sure Honor would be willing to surrender her status, officially, if necessary. If necessary, Honor would give up everything to protect Grayson and to shield Grayson from any political fallout.

But I simply cannot fathom a universe where the loyalty of every single surviving member of the Elysian Space Navy does not lie at the feet of Honor Harrington. (Feet? Fleet?) People in Hell do not generally expect to be rescued. People simply do not return from Hell. Heck, if Honor asked any of the members of the ESN to follow her and they refused, that would probably sadden the Protector. He'd will them to go with her.

Honor will always be a god to them. She freed them from Hell.

An aside: Was Honor "the Salamander" then? Did the sinners in Hell get to meet Honor Harrington and the Salamander simultaneously?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Would someone please refresh my memory? What are the political limitations imposed by Grayson about owning your own personal fleet? Would it matter if she owned the fleet in her Steadholder personna, her personna as a Key, or her personna (credentials) in the Royal Manticoran Navy? Or, as her plain Jane personna of being Honor Harrington in a tail of four cities?

After winning the Grayson Civil War Benjamin the Great got a written constitution that "restricted the size of the Keys' personal guards" [FiE]

And we get more details in AoV

Ashes of Victory - Ch. wrote:Every armsman in the service of Harrington Steading answered to Honor in one way or another, but most did so only indirectly, through the administrative machinery of her steading's police forces. Only fifty were her personal liege men, sworn to her service, and not the steading's. Any order she gave those fifty men had the force of law, so long as it did not violate the Constitution, and the fact that she'd given it shielded them from any consequences for having obeyed even if it did. She could be held responsible for it; they could not, but those fifty were the only personal force Steadholder Harrington was permitted.
Steadholders might command other military forces from within the chain of command of the Grayson Army or Navy, but to satisfy the Constitution, the command of those forces must be lodged in the established Grayson military with the specific approval of the planet's ruler. And Protector Benjamin IX had not said a word about anything called "the Elysian Space Navy."

Theemile wrote: And she'd be equally covered when commanding forces assigned to her by any f her governments or government positions (even if those governments aren't Grayson - at least that seems to be the way the Constitution is being interpreted).

So ships and personnel she commands in her role as a member of the RMN are also fine. As would be any forces she might have actual or honorary command of in her persona as a Manticoran Lord (if, for example, a Duchess were considered head of their Duchy's police force. No idea if they are; but it'd be okay with the Grayson constitution if they were -- just like it's okay that she's the head of the larger Harrington Steading Guard; the Steading's police force)

And this was the reason the Elysian Space navy was absorbed into the Protector's Own forces (as his new personal space navy). As his leige man and protector, It was claimed that Honor had taken those ships in his name, and was acting in his interest, giving the whole thing a blanket of legal cover (because she was not in a position to ask his permission first.)

Doing it again just for giggles... illegal.

I am hard-pressed to imagine a universe where the Salamander has gone rogue to be a laughing, or a giggling, matter.

What amount of force is she legally allowed to command as a Manticoran Lord?

On Grayson, the law seems to apply to ground units and naval units in the system. And not as an adjunct to the assets of a citizen of another planet.

Theemile wrote:Doing it again just for giggles... illegal.

penny wrote:I am hard-pressed to imagine a universe where the Salamander has gone rogue to be a laughing, or a giggling, matter.

What amount of force is she legally allowed to command as a Manticoran Lord?

On Grayson, the law seems to apply to ground units and naval units in the system. And not as an adjunct to the assets of a citizen of another planet.

Theemile was simply pointing out that if Honor goes rogue for whatever reason (including just for the laughs), then she has made herself an outlaw.

Unlike Grayson, there is no expectation of a Manticoran Lord maintaining an army or navy. If she were to hire professionals for protection, then the only limitation is probably her wealth. But if she uses those men in an unsanctioned offense, then she is an outlaw and that wealth could be seized and she and all her personnel put in prison.

EDIT: Corrected the attribution of "giggles" comment.

penny wrote:I was allowing for the possibility that it might be different for a Steadholder who has lost their status as a Key. Kicked out of the Conclave of Steadholders. A Key can be impeached by a majority vote of at least forty-four of its members.

After Honor has been impeached and is no longer a Steadholder, would she still be subject to that limitation? At any rate, I am sure Honor would be willing to surrender her status, officially, if necessary. If necessary, Honor would give up everything to protect Grayson and to shield Grayson from any political fallout.

I don't think we're aware of any Grayson laws or constitutional limits on a private citizen hiring armed security or guards. But those armed folks would have no legal protections for actions they took at the instruction of the private citizen -- not like the Steadholer's 50 personal guards do.

And of course interstellar law still applies if you take armed actions against forces, citizens, or systems outside your own.

Historically the Honorverse had naval mercenaries, and I don't recall hearing of any law that prohibited them (unlike here on Earth where the 1865 Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law effectively became incorporated as international law abolishing Privateering. Though I don't think even that actually forbids naval military contractors; as long as they aren't self-financing through the capture of enemy ships and cargo).

But even if naval mercenaries are still legal in the modern day Honorverse they'd still need to be hired by a recognized government and need to follow interstellar law; lest somebody more powerful take an interest in curbing their bad behavior (possibly fatally)