Spoilers - Toll of Honor

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:With Manticore inside Haven's OODA loop, Haven could easily loose their entire numerical advantage (and more) to Trevor's Star/Barnet . What are the chances Manticore could do another Speed Run to Haven?

Personally, I think it would be irresponsible. Taking Trevor's Star/Barnet would incur too many causalities. While they can quickly be cycled home to be repaired, replacing them on the front lines mean there are few viable reserves at home. Fortifying Trevor's Star with attendant local clean up raids makes the most sense, and just allow Haven's forces to come to them. (I would liquidate the facilities at Barnet - holding that system en force would be too much diversion of forces, and give no material benefit.)

And once you get too far past Trevor's Star you'll no longer be inside Haven's OODA loop -- as their loop shortens as forces get pushed back closer to Haven; just due to dramatically reducing communication times.

And while Manticore gets a partial reset of their OODA loop after taking Trevor's Star - eliminating much of their previous message lag - that starts growing again as they push further and further.

So that's another reason to at least pause after taking Trevor's Star. But yes, I do think it likely that with an immediate declaration of war that there's a very good chance that Manticore could over overrun Trevor's Star before Haven's fleet got their feet back from under them. I just don't think they could make it all that much further -- not until they have a chance to repair the damaged ships from that campaign, refit the ships coming out of reserve, and conversion of the captured units (Oh, and free up the personnel for those by standing down many of the Junction forts).

And of course, we were neglecting to mention the sudden need for more ship postings - Once you take Trevor's star, you have 2 more points that must be defended at all costs. In the books, 6th fleet was sidelined to create Trevor's Star's defensive fleet, and a new command, 8th Fleet, was created mostly of allied ships several years later to continue the assault into Havenite space. Would Manticore have sufficient hulls to properly defend Tevor's Star, it's other commands, AND a assault fleet sufficient to attack Havenite space inside that 6 month window?

I doubt it.

Theemile wrote:With Manticore inside Haven's OODA loop, Haven could easily loose their entire numerical advantage (and more) to Trevor's Star/Barnet . What are the chances Manticore could do another Speed Run to Haven?

Personally, I think it would be irresponsible. Taking Trevor's Star/Barnet would incur too many causalities. While they can quickly be cycled home to be repaired, replacing them on the front lines mean there are few viable reserves at home. Fortifying Trevor's Star with attendant local clean up raids makes the most sense, and just allow Haven's forces to come to them. (I would liquidate the facilities at Barnet - holding that system en force would be too much diversion of forces, and give no material benefit.)

On the face of it, I don't think they could. After Barnett, the nearest major naval base is Haven itself. What basically happens at that point is the same sort of creeping near-stalemate we saw happen in the march to Trevor's Star, except now it's happening on the road to Haven.

Starting from Trevor's Star in 1906, they're spending the next four years nibbling up the same systems that Operation Buttercup took in a flash. So they would get to Lovat around the same time they originally got Trevor's Star, by 1911. "Buttercup" becomes a small hop from Lovat to Haven.

However, part of what changes is that McQueen is probably killed off in the Trevor's Star speedrun, which means she isn't at Haven to stop the Leveler Uprising which probably also happens sooner. If it succeeds, that kicks the Havenite navy(what's left of it) back to the floor it was upon after Pierre's coup had initiated its officer purge. Perhaps even lower than that, since LaBoeuf wanted to shoot everyone above the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

munroburton wrote:

Theemile wrote:With Manticore inside Haven's OODA loop, Haven could easily loose their entire numerical advantage (and more) to Trevor's Star/Barnet . What are the chances Manticore could do another Speed Run to Haven?

Personally, I think it would be irresponsible. Taking Trevor's Star/Barnet would incur too many causalities. While they can quickly be cycled home to be repaired, replacing them on the front lines mean there are few viable reserves at home. Fortifying Trevor's Star with attendant local clean up raids makes the most sense, and just allow Haven's forces to come to them. (I would liquidate the facilities at Barnet - holding that system en force would be too much diversion of forces, and give no material benefit.)

On the face of it, I don't think they could. After Barnett, the nearest major naval base is Haven itself. What basically happens at that point is the same sort of creeping near-stalemate we saw happen in the march to Trevor's Star, except now it's happening on the road to Haven.

Starting from Trevor's Star in 1906, they're spending the next four years nibbling up the same systems that Operation Buttercup took in a flash. So they would get to Lovat around the same time they originally got Trevor's Star, by 1911. "Buttercup" becomes a small hop from Lovat to Haven.

However, part of what changes is that McQueen is probably killed off in the Trevor's Star speedrun, which means she isn't at Haven to stop the Leveler Uprising which probably also happens sooner. If it succeeds, that kicks the Havenite navy(what's left of it) back to the floor it was upon after Pierre's coup had initiated its officer purge. Perhaps even lower than that, since LaBoeuf wanted to shoot everyone above the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

And this is built on the proposition that Haven doesn't completely come apart at the seams. A Civil war - or worse - a scramble for power, could have happened at any time up until the Theisman restoration.

And even that iniated SS warlords to scramble for power.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:On a completely different item in _Toll of Honor_, there is a scene where Pavel Young and Georgia are discussing her being outed to the Audubon Ballroom (in _Field of Dishonor_, only her previous identity as Elaine Komandorski was mentioned). I view this to be incompatible to chapter 50 of _War of Honor_ where Anton Zilwicki and Catherine Montaigne explained to her why she should accept their "generous" offer.

Dimitri Young knew her secret. It's been in the files. We don't know how and where he acquired that knowledge.

Anton and Catherine don't know whether or how much of her secret is known to the Youngs.

I don't see where exactly that is incompatible.

I have two thoughts about the battle at the Samson System (book two), which just don't seem to match up.

The first is that gas giants usually have their own hyper limit (as their gravity is big enough) - ships in an orbit close to the gas giant should not be able to hyper out.

The second is that If I want to get out of hyper with the greatest possible retaining speed, a crash translation through 4 bands makes no sense, as each band cuts off of your velocity. You translate down to the lowest alpha band, then accelerate to maximum speed, then do a crash translation back to normal. You'll arrive later, but with a higher velocity.

markusschaber wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:On a completely different item in _Toll of Honor_, there is a scene where Pavel Young and Georgia are discussing her being outed to the Audubon Ballroom (in _Field of Dishonor_, only her previous identity as Elaine Komandorski was mentioned). I view this to be incompatible to chapter 50 of _War of Honor_ where Anton Zilwicki and Catherine Montaigne explained to her why she should accept their "generous" offer.

Dimitri Young knew her secret. It's been in the files. We don't know how and where he acquired that knowledge.

Anton and Catherine don't know whether or how much of her secret is known to the Youngs.

I don't see where exactly that is incompatible.

Dimitri knew about Elaine. But, I find it rather difficult to see how Dimitri Young could have back tracked Elaine to the Maya sector. I also find it difficult to reconcile Georgia's shock when Anton revealed that part of her back history (if Dimitri had done it, then it wouldn't be such a surprise for Anton to repeat).

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Dimitri Young knew her secret. It's been in the files. We don't know how and where he acquired that knowledge.

Anton and Catherine don't know whether or how much of her secret is known to the Youngs.

I don't see where exactly that is incompatible.

Dimitri knew about Elaine. But, I find it rather difficult to see how Dimitri Young could have back tracked Elaine to the Maya sector. I also find it difficult to reconcile Georgia's shock when Anton revealed that part of her back history (if Dimitri had done it, then it wouldn't be such a surprise for Anton to repeat).

Maybe the Dimitri got the info from a Ballroom member?
We know he was in to some "shady" data collection, why not the Ballroom. Especially if it let him find out which SKM politicians were in bed with ManPower Inc.

E.g., we are looking for this person can you help us, and we can give you this info?
He didn't know but then got the genetic info as part of the ID package, and at a later date put two and two together.

The way Catharine and Anton mentioned the event it did not seem like it was a big secret of what she did just not common knowledge.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Dimitri Young knew her secret. It's been in the files. We don't know how and where he acquired that knowledge.

Anton and Catherine don't know whether or how much of her secret is known to the Youngs.

I don't see where exactly that is incompatible.

Dimitri knew about Elaine. But, I find it rather difficult to see how Dimitri Young could have back tracked Elaine to the Maya sector. I also find it difficult to reconcile Georgia's shock when Anton revealed that part of her back history (if Dimitri had done it, then it wouldn't be such a surprise for Anton to repeat).

Garth 2 wrote:Maybe the Dimitri got the info from a Ballroom member?
We know he was in to some "shady" data collection, why not the Ballroom. Especially if it let him find out which SKM politicians were in bed with ManPower Inc.

E.g., we are looking for this person can you help us, and we can give you this info?
He didn't know but then got the genetic info as part of the ID package, and at a later date put two and two together.

The way Catharine and Anton mentioned the event it did not seem like it was a big secret of what she did just not common knowledge.

The big secret that Anton had was that she was a slave that had bought her freedom by selling out other slaves and then that she had the slave mark removed from her tongue. If the Ballroom had known about any of that; then they would have killed her, rather than selling the information to the Youngs. The Ballroom could have known about her background on Manticore, but would not care that much.

I expect that the Young database only had information about her criminal activities on Manticore before her latest name change. That was not enough to get her killed, but would have put her in prison for a long time. For a person wanting a life of luxury, the threat of prison would motivation enough.

Garth 2 wrote:Maybe the Dimitri got the info from a Ballroom member?
We know he was in to some "shady" data collection, why not the Ballroom. Especially if it let him find out which SKM politicians were in bed with ManPower Inc.

E.g., we are looking for this person can you help us, and we can give you this info?
He didn't know but then got the genetic info as part of the ID package, and at a later date put two and two together.

The way Catharine and Anton mentioned the event it did not seem like it was a big secret of what she did just not common knowledge.

The big secret that Anton had was that she was a slave that had bought her freedom by selling out other slaves and then that she had the slave mark removed from her tongue. If the Ballroom had known about any of that; then they would have killed her, rather than selling the information to the Youngs. The Ballroom could have known about her background on Manticore, but would not care that much.

I expect that the Young database only had information about her criminal activities on Manticore before her latest name change. That was not enough to get her killed, but would have put her in prison for a long time. For a person wanting a life of luxury, the threat of prison would motivation enough.[/quote]

The fact the Ballroom was looking for a slave who sold other slaves back into slavery for her freedom was known within some circles, my impression from the way Catharine dropped it in to conversation was that the Ballroom knew who they were but not where they where (the galaxy is a big place)

If the text in the book (which I haven't yet read) is that Young knew she was that Slave to convince her to "stay loyal" she wouldn't have known that Dmitri new (after all there is no reason for him to tell her).

You can see the sequence
Dmitri intelligence network has some limited contacts with Ballroom mostly for dirt on SKM politicians and business leaders
Dmitri intelligence network identifies Elaine as a person of interest due to her activities (which could have impacted a business Dmitri had involvement in, hence why he was looking)
Uses that (as he doesn't need to worry about little things like "due process") to convince her to work for him
As part of the "employment" process, he gets her genetic code/marks
Either earlier or after (it doesn't really matter) the Ballroom approaches Dmitri and provides the info on the person they are looking for, at some point his network/system compares the two data sets and "bingo" but he keeps the info to himself.

After all why would he agree to delete the info on Elaine criminal activities in the SKM as a quid pro quo for her loyalty if he didn't have an other um.. way to control her

Garth 2 wrote:The fact the Ballroom was looking for a slave who sold other slaves back into slavery for her freedom was known within some circles, my impression from the way Catharine dropped it in to conversation was that the Ballroom knew who they were but not where they where (the galaxy is a big place)

If the text in the book (which I haven't yet read) is that Young knew she was that Slave to convince her to "stay loyal" she wouldn't have known that Dmitri new (after all there is no reason for him to tell her).

You can see the sequence
Dmitri intelligence network has some limited contacts with Ballroom mostly for dirt on SKM politicians and business leaders
Dmitri intelligence network identifies Elaine as a person of interest due to her activities (which could have impacted a business Dmitri had involvement in, hence why he was looking)
Uses that (as he doesn't need to worry about little things like "due process") to convince her to work for him
As part of the "employment" process, he gets her genetic code/marks
Either earlier or after (it doesn't really matter) the Ballroom approaches Dmitri and provides the info on the person they are looking for, at some point his network/system compares the two data sets and "bingo" but he keeps the info to himself.

After all why would he agree to delete the info on Elaine criminal activities in the SKM as a quid pro quo for her loyalty if he didn't have an other um.. way to control her

The slave that sold out other slaves would be an international criminal; so why wouldn't the Ballroom provide any information that they had to the police instead of to the Youngs? In particular, since the Youngs' political leanings would be opposed to the slave freedom agenda that motivated the Ballroom, why would they work with the Youngs?