SLN, and MAlign playing catch up with Manticoran superiority

jtg452 wrote:I'm also referring to (and poking fun at) the propensity here of any conversation we have devolving into someone suggesting the deployment of so many BC(P)'s or a CLAC and some Sag C's and Rolands.

tlb wrote:

jtg452 wrote:I'm also referring to (and poking fun at) the propensity here of any conversation we have devolving into someone suggesting the deployment of so many BC(P)'s or a CLAC and some Sag C's and Rolands.

This thread includes thoughts on whether the funding for the Navy will change, so you have to expect that. Since any discussion of the future mission and composition of the Navy will naturally involve the proper mix of ship classes. Even the author gets into that; as I believe he has said the destroyer class will never go away, since it is defined by its designed mission and not its weight. Also he has definitely made comments about the frigate class.

Even I have have sometimes ventured a thought or two. For example: I suggested that a class of forts should be built with a hyper-generator and sails; so that they could be flown into place, rather than constructed on site. This would make them easier to remove when no longer needed.

tlb wrote:Even I have have sometimes ventured a thought or two. For example: I suggested that a class of forts should be built with a hyper-generator and sails; so that they could be flown into place, rather than constructed on site. This would make them easier to remove when no longer needed.

Theemile wrote:Sails require 2 rings and are dependent on hull shape - there is a required ratio between ring diameter, and distance between the rings - a smaller ring than the hull width/depth needs clearance between the rings for the sails to form (hence the taper on ships).

Forts have an oblate sphere shape and a single drive ring. part f the advantage of a fort is the lack of wasted mass on the 2nd drive ring, hyper generator, etc, allowing it to focus on warfighting. Also Sails require a compensator to dump energy into if you want to sail with the grav wave - and a fort is above the max compensation line.

And guess what - constructions with all the above are being built right up to the limit of the compensator - they are called Super Dreadnaughts.

Now, this is not to say I disagree with you - a set of smallish Forts with just a hyper generator WOULD make sense. It would have slow strategic speed, and be limited by the grav waves it encounters, but could be redeployed rapidly through hyper to secure a system after it had been taken.

munroburton wrote:

Mycall4me wrote:Well so was King Roger before the war, and he was able to infuence weapons r&d with project Gram.

And Benjamin isn't dead yet, and with Manticore's medical knowledge there's no reason that he couldn't live for 25 years or more. After all didn't Howard Clinkscales live into his 90's? Benjamin is only in his 50's (?) afterall.

Roger III's influence was effective because Haven was obviously expanding. That's what happens when the existence of something like the DuQuesne plan becomes public knowledge, the Havenites name their third largest fleet base(Barnett) DuQuesne and their first (known) class of superdreadnought DuQuesne. Not to mention the hundred or two systems they'd been steadily gobbling up.

What provides that factor for Elizabeth? Haven released all those systems and is allied with Manticore. The second war with Haven only happened because High Ridge didn't finish the first war on Manticore's terms, which is not the case when it comes to the Solarian League. Galton did much to remove the threat of unseen enemies as they now have little reason to fear Darius.

The Manticoran political circumstances have also changed - instead of persuading Lords to see things their way as Roger III had to, Elizabeth now needs the Commons to provide that majority. Which means she needs to win over 50% of the Star Empire's electorate, a considerably larger task even before the Quadrant's electoral value catches up.

Benjamin can hang on for a while, but I think the explanation for how Grayson was able to support such a disproportionate military lies in how they were able to divert the surplus of an enormous economic boom due to extensive modernisation. But that runway isn't infinitely long, even if it does appear to be giving the one in Fast & Furious 6 a... run for its money.

Grayson culture gives its rulers enormous latitude but Keys looking to reassert themselves and reverse Benjamin's seizure of power during HotQ are going to use it as a wedge issue eventually. Against Benjamin, that's not likely to work. But it isn't Benjamin they're pushing against; it's Bernard, who will have only a fraction of Benjamin's personal prestige, experience or connections.

Fireflair wrote:Something which hasn't been brought up is the sheer size of the SLN. With thousands of systems and an economic engine that is stupendous, they can afford to run thousands of R&D projects to catch up. If each system has just 5 projects and there's 3-4 overlapping projects between systems, there's still a massive number of R&D projects with a huge amount of funding behind them.

Dauntless wrote:CA up designs are fine, lots of older SD's to mothball or scrap, but BC and CAs are good barring maybe a few more crew for prize crews or rescue ops. Both Sag-C and Nike designs have shown great promise and can slowly replace anything before a Sag-B/flight 4 reliant.

As has been discussed before, the big gap they need to fill is a light ship that has the range and bite of a Roland and can do everything an Avalon can do, to replace the hundreds of DD and CL that are getting more and more obsolete.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Even I have have sometimes ventured a thought or two. For example: I suggested that a class of forts should be built with a hyper-generator and sails; so that they could be flown into place, rather than constructed on site. This would make them easier to remove when no longer needed.

Theemile wrote:Sails require 2 rings and are dependent on hull shape - there is a required ratio between ring diameter, and distance between the rings - a smaller ring than the hull width/depth needs clearance between the rings for the sails to form (hence the taper on ships).

Forts have an oblate sphere shape and a single drive ring. part f the advantage of a fort is the lack of wasted mass on the 2nd drive ring, hyper generator, etc, allowing it to focus on warfighting. Also Sails require a compensator to dump energy into if you want to sail with the grav wave - and a fort is above the max compensation line.

And guess what - constructions with all the above are being built right up to the limit of the compensator - they are called Super Dreadnaughts.

Now, this is not to say I disagree with you - a set of smallish Forts with just a hyper generator WOULD make sense. It would have slow strategic speed, and be limited by the grav waves it encounters, but could be redeployed rapidly through hyper to secure a system after it had been taken.

If the fort were a prolate spheroid, instead of an oblate spheroid, then it would be close to the spindle shape required by the use of sails. I believe the compensator is required if you intend to use the full acceleration afforded by a gravity wave; without it you are limited to the acceleration that can be managed by artificial gravity plates (the same limit that the Leonard Detweiler class ship will have) and you are no longer limited by a weight maximum.

The main reason I suggested this was to eliminate the construction time AT THE HOSTILE SITE, instead they would be assembled in the naval shipyards and arrive fully functional.

PS: Why oblate spheroid and not just sphere?

Theemile wrote:Without a comp, a ship with normal Grav plates is limited to short durations at 150 gs (crew will feel continuous 5 gs, and be strapped to grav couches), and 50 gs for longer duration (1 G felt by crew). So doable, just low strategic speed and ship can't use sails to travel with grav waves (the ship is perennially "tacking").

As I said, I do agree with you - just the technology limits this concept - which is why we're not seeing it - just like why we're not seeing SDs with bubble sidewalls. Building these things is an expensive proposition and has no "planned" need. IRL, something like this is rarely built because it is usually cut out of budgets - since it's a "might be useful in such cases" item instead of a "Has a required capability that addresses a current need" item, it's going to be dropped in peacetime, and in war time, other units will probably have priority.

Actualy not certain on the oblateness, - all the current fort designs are mentioned to be oblate, or the shape is not mentioned. I believe the oblateness is due to the drive ring, but that's an assumption.

In addition, the problems of acceleration remained. The Warshawski Sail could be adjusted by decreasing the strength of the field, thus allowing a greater proportion of the grav wave's power to "leak" through it, to hold acceleration down to something a human body could tolerate, but the old bugaboo of "g forces" remained a problem for the next century or so.
Then, in 1384 pd, a physicist by the name of Shigematsu Radhakrishnan added another major breakthrough in the form of the inertial compensator.

Joat42 wrote:

Fireflair wrote:Something which hasn't been brought up is the sheer size of the SLN. With thousands of systems and an economic engine that is stupendous, they can afford to run thousands of R&D projects to catch up. If each system has just 5 projects and there's 3-4 overlapping projects between systems, there's still a massive number of R&D projects with a huge amount of funding behind them.

What funding does the SLN have now? They can't use the verge as a piggy-bank any more, plus every ship they have (left) is obsolete.

Just remember the stipulations Honor made to the SL and how that will affect R&D and navy build-up.