Spoilers - Toll of Honor

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Before I posted, I should have checked Jaynes. Both The Triumphant BB and the Nouveau Paris Class Dreadnought is in the PRN Jaynes. Both are listed as using the L13(a) Capital Missile, but use 2 different mod of launchers. Be interesting to see how this datum falls out.

Ah, and that's an inconsistency I'd missed and didn't have on my list - or maybe a change in the book.

I'm rechecking the advance copy I've got and the closest thing I'm seeing is in the Mathias System segment where it might imply that the Peep BBs weren't firing capital ships missiles. That's where it states that the Manticorans were firing capital ship missiles - and going on to state their advantages. But that could potentially be read as the RMN capital missiles were that much better than the Peep capital ship missiles.
But also, looking through that passage the Peep ships are said to have 46 tubes in their broadsides; which doesn't line up with the 30 tubes the Triumphant-class is said to carry not only in Jaynes, but also in ToH later in the Sigismund Alpha,
Slocum System section.

Also I note that in the Mathias System chapter it doesn't give the ship class(es) of the Peep BBs. So maybe, maybe, we're looking at a previously unmentioned class of Peep BBs, ones carrying more and thus, yes, likely lighter missile tubes than the Triumphants.

Jonathan_S wrote:

justdave wrote:MWM said at a recent con he wanted to make it clear that the RMN would have defeated Haven quickly if the High Ridge Government had declared war at that time.

I mean it's his universe - but I have a hard time believing that even with immediate war emergency funding that the RMN could have kept up the pace long enough to decisively defeat enough of the Peep's pre-war fleet or enough of their yards, to quickly win the war. Wars just aren't usually won at the rush like that.

Now I could easily believe that they could have had enough momentum to overrun Trevor's Star, and maybe even some of the big pre-war naval bases. (And that probably would have shaved years off the war -- but there's a huge difference between winning the war quicker and winning the war quickly)

I don't think they could have kept enough ships on the front lines, or had sufficient logistics, to have actually cut their across the hundreds of lightyears, and many dozens of systems, to take the orbitals over Haven and force and end to the war. They just didn't have a large enough fleet, and even with full wartime funding letting them lay down as many hulls as they want, new wallers laid down today are still 18+ months from completion. Every ship that's lost, every ships that sent back for months in the yard, reduced their ability to push forward. (And that's assuming they're willing to keep the fleet together and pressing forward - diverting none of its heavy hitters to secure captured systems. Yet, at an absolute minimum they'd hold a significant fleet at Trevor's Star)


So win quicker I could believe. Win quickly not so much.

Edit - Actually I just realized one way they might. If their initial larger rush, that overran Trevor's Star triggered one or more coups or breakaways against the Pierre regime. If significant parts of the Peep fleet turned on itself, or broke away, or if Pierre was overthrown, then it might be possible to defeat Haven (get a peace Manticore can live with) without fighting all the way to Haven itself though the massive pre-war Peep fleet.

munroburton wrote:It's about keeping the pressure up. Instead of White Haven pursuing Parnell's survivors to their destruction, he was recalled to preside over a farcial trial.

In the first weeks of the war, the RMN managed to take something like 80 or 90 SDs away from the PN(by capture or destruction) with another 40 to 50 limping into repair yards. It would have been some of that forty to fifty which got repaired and freed ships for Stalking Horse as well as that attempted ambush of White Haven at Nightingale.

Haven had also started an officer purge at that time, something which could have devastated them if White Haven had been allowed to keep pushing them off-balance. There's a potentially huge difference between a newly appointed Citizen Admiral 12 hours into their first command with a brand new commissar breathing down their neck and the same admiral who's had two days - or weeks! - to run a few drills and obtain that commissar's recognition.

In hindsight, it was the fighting around Trevor's Star which wore the RMN down to the point that once they finally took it, they were back onto the defensive. A "blitzkrieg rush" to Trevor's Star skips some of that wear and tear, reduces the RMN's losses(while increasing Haven's) and massively simplifies its logistics much earlier.

tlb wrote:

munroburton wrote:It's about keeping the pressure up. Instead of White Haven pursuing Parnell's survivors to their destruction, he was recalled to preside over a farcial trial.

In the first weeks of the war, the RMN managed to take something like 80 or 90 SDs away from the PN(by capture or destruction) with another 40 to 50 limping into repair yards. It would have been some of that forty to fifty which got repaired and freed ships for Stalking Horse as well as that attempted ambush of White Haven at Nightingale.

Haven had also started an officer purge at that time, something which could have devastated them if White Haven had been allowed to keep pushing them off-balance. There's a potentially huge difference between a newly appointed Citizen Admiral 12 hours into their first command with a brand new commissar breathing down their neck and the same admiral who's had two days - or weeks! - to run a few drills and obtain that commissar's recognition.

In hindsight, it was the fighting around Trevor's Star which wore the RMN down to the point that once they finally took it, they were back onto the defensive. A "blitzkrieg rush" to Trevor's Star skips some of that wear and tear, reduces the RMN's losses(while increasing Haven's) and massively simplifies its logistics much earlier.

It is true that White Haven wanted to do much more; but in the absence of a Declaration of War, it is not clear how much could have been done. It is also true that the court martial became a flash point in the dispute over the declaration, but it is still the declaration and not the trial that hindered the pursuit of the war.

tlb wrote:It is true that White Haven wanted to do much more; but in the absence of a Declaration of War, it is not clear how much could have been done. It is also true that the court martial became a flash point in the dispute over the declaration, but it is still the declaration and not the trial that hindered the pursuit of the war.

Admiral White Haven was senior member of the court martial, because he would be available due to the return from Chelsea. The text says that if he was not back in time, then someone else would be be picked. The text does NOT say that he was recalled specifically to head the court martial.

tlb wrote:It is true that White Haven wanted to do much more; but in the absence of a Declaration of War, it is not clear how much could have been done. It is also true that the court martial became a flash point in the dispute over the declaration, but it is still the declaration and not the trial that hindered the pursuit of the war.

Admiral White Haven was senior member of the court martial, because he would be available due to the return from Chelsea. The text says that if he was not back in time, then someone else would be be picked. The text does NOT say that he was recalled specifically to head the court martial.

Jonathan_S wrote:Right - but this thread tangent started with justdave sharing something RFC had said about the outcome if there had been an immediate declaration of war.

So in the books, yes, White Haven was shackled by the lack of funding and support caused by the delay. But in some alternate history where an immediate declaration of was was issued - how well could he have done?

munroburton wrote:Not clear how much could have been done? Admiral Parks' actions in the aftermath of First Hancock is the model for what should have been done. He pursued Admiral Rollins' task force back to its base and destroyed it; only three Havenite SDs escaped.

The reason White Haven was recalled to the home system is because the politics there dictated it. If the Manticoran opposition had folded immediately, White Haven could have been authorised to continue attacking from Chelsea. The true reason they refused to fold was because of North Hollow's files and his son's court martial.

If Young had held his nerve, or better yet eaten a laser-head, the opposition would've folded sooner. Meanwhile, the People's Navy is getting up off the floor and rushing all those battleships to the Trevor's Star area to buy time.

Of course this takes the benefit of hindsight fully and they probably weren't planning such a direct approach, but White Haven and Parks could have concentrated at Chelsea and driven upon Barnett without so much delay. They roll in years before Theisman has time to build up all those defensive measures which Buttercup obliterated with impunity, blow away or capture fifty damaged SDs helplessly squatting in their repair docks, those repair docks and wheel about to seize the San Martin terminus. Then they swap their own damaged vessels for Home Fleet's fresh reserves and carry on, assuming they've been able to maintain their exchange ratio.

The key is combining substantial numbers of additional captured ships with the earlier standing down of junction forts to crew them.

"More than that, he's directed us to up the stakes." He slid a sketched out deployment order across the desk to her and tipped back his chair as she scanned it.
"Four squadrons?" Givens murmured, absently twisting a lock of brown hair around an index finger. "That's quite a diversion."
"You can say that again—and all superdreadnoughts." Caparelli smiled a bit sourly. "That's twenty-six percent of Home Fleet's superdreadnoughts. If we get hit here while they're out there—" He broke off and waved both hands in a throwaway gesture, and Givens pursed her lips.
"Maybe, Sir. Then again, maybe not. It won't exactly leave us uncovered, and if the Peeps buy our fake redeployments, they'll run into over sixty superdreadnoughts they think are somewhere else."
"I know." Caparelli frowned a moment longer, then nodded. "All right, let's get this set up. And I guess we'd better send along a flag officer with the seniority for that big a reinforcement."
"Who did you have in mind, Sir?"
"Who else?" Caparelli's sour smile was back. "It'll almost have to be White Haven, won't it?"
"White Haven?" Givens couldn't quite hide her surprise. Not only did she know Caparelli and White Haven disliked one another, but White Haven was currently second in command of Home Fleet, as well.

tlb wrote:I missed the initial point of the thread and reacted because the court martial was described as a "farcial trial", a description that I very much dislike. Perhaps the result was more politics, than justice; but justice was still served.

Anyway, White Haven was NOT recalled due to politics; he returned because he and the ships he commanded were part of Home Fleet, which could not be left uncovered. From chapter 23, The Short Victorious War:

"More than that, he's directed us to up the stakes." He slid a sketched out deployment order across the desk to her and tipped back his chair as she scanned it.
"Four squadrons?" Givens murmured, absently twisting a lock of brown hair around an index finger. "That's quite a diversion."
"You can say that again—and all superdreadnoughts." Caparelli smiled a bit sourly. "That's twenty-six percent of Home Fleet's superdreadnoughts. If we get hit here while they're out there—" He broke off and waved both hands in a throwaway gesture, and Givens pursed her lips.
"Maybe, Sir. Then again, maybe not. It won't exactly leave us uncovered, and if the Peeps buy our fake redeployments, they'll run into over sixty superdreadnoughts they think are somewhere else."
"I know." Caparelli frowned a moment longer, then nodded. "All right, let's get this set up. And I guess we'd better send along a flag officer with the seniority for that big a reinforcement."
"Who did you have in mind, Sir?"
"Who else?" Caparelli's sour smile was back. "It'll almost have to be White Haven, won't it?"
"White Haven?" Givens couldn't quite hide her surprise. Not only did she know Caparelli and White Haven disliked one another, but White Haven was currently second in command of Home Fleet, as well.

Theemile wrote:While true, White Haven was initially part of Home Fleet, but 6th fleet was quickly created for him to take the fight to the Havenites, and it sat for 6 months while FoD unfolded. Without the Lord's refusal to declare war, White Haven would have been unable to sit for the courtmartial due to his position, and would have been out taking the fight to Haven.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:While true, White Haven was initially part of Home Fleet, but 6th fleet was quickly created for him to take the fight to the Havenites, and it sat for 6 months while FoD unfolded. Without the Lord's refusal to declare war, White Haven would have been unable to sit for the courtmartial due to his position, and would have been out taking the fight to Haven.

Still, in the immediate aftermath of the battle, the ships borrowed from Home Fleet had to be returned. So there was no chasing ships back to Barnett by them, unlike Park's case where the main forces stationed at Seaford had been defeated and the distance was much shorter.

However my main point is that White Haven was not recalled to sit on the court martial; instead he was selected for the court martial, because of his return that was dictated by the ships returning to Home Fleet. Once randomly selected by the computer, because of his return; he would not be able to run off and fight. If there had been a Declaration of War, then someone else could have commanded Sixth Fleet.

tlb wrote:I missed the initial point of the thread and reacted because the court martial was described as a "farcial trial", a description that I very much dislike. Perhaps the result was more politics, than justice; but justice was still served.

munroburton wrote:White Haven wasn't specifically recalled because he was selected as a judge, but he was recalled because of the domestic political situation, which was prolonged by the looming court martial and resulted in his selection. More pertinently, he might not have been authorised to attack until that court martial was concluded and the politics could move on, even if he had not been selected.