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Spoilers - Toll of Honor

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Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Theemile   » Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:34 am

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Toll of Honor is broke into 2 books, and spans the period from the end of the Battle of Hancock to several months after the Battle of Nightengale, paralleling the last few chapters of SVW, all of FoD, and the first part of HiE.

Brandy Bolego is not the heroine of the book, but is the mechanism on which the book moves forward. The book tells the previous stories form another point of view. Bolego is occasionally the main PoV character, but not always. While she is the center of the story, the story isn't hers, she's mainly just near the events happening around her on a grand scale.

As such, the 1st portion of the book doesn't really give us anything new, but tells points of view which show how badly the actions of the Manty opposition parties, and their use of the Young court martial, freeze the RMN when it should be able to sally out and take the fight further into Haven controlled space and make true dividends before the new Havenite leadership reforms and learns it's job.

The RMN is initially able to use it's most ambitious pre-war retaliatory plan to follow up the initial Havenite strikes, but further action is stymied as the RMN needs funding and supplies beyond that provided in it's yearly maintenance and training budgets to continue fighting, and to ramp up munitions and parts production to supply their forces in an environment where active operations are putting years of scheduled peacetime use on parts in mere months, let alone that required to repair battle damage. Fleets ready for battle sit for half a year - half a year that gives the New Havenite leadership time to sort itself out.

The 2nd half is 6th fleet taking the fight to the Havenites on the "northern" theater, pushing to Trevor's star. Several systems are quickly taken, and the Havenite PoV characters are universally jr officers elevated 4 or 5 levels to command positions they know they are unprepared for, and sadistic People's Commissioners elevated even further.

Before Nightengale, all the RMN runs into is pickets of a handful of BBs with escorts or smaller, none of the wall. We find out about "collective guilt" - every Havenite Navy member is being forced to serve - and serve well - or their family will pay the price. No one can afford to look like they are being defeatist or not doing their duty, for fear of reprecussions to their family. Nightengale is the first time 6th fleet meets wallers, and the ill timed trap there is the first sign of the Havenite's wall - and their command teams having learned their jobs.

After several smaller actions, the Prince Adrian (as well as other ships) are rotated home as constant warfighting has worn them out, despite the heroic work of engineering staffs and support ships.

The back thread of the Book is Harkness and Bancock's relationship getting closer and closer, ending in Harkness taking a debilitating round for Iris in a boarding action, which results in their getting married. (not in the book).

Points of Note. The PRN Tonnare class BC is mentioned for the first time in cannon (it was mentioned in a Jayne's filler paragraph), and 2 new CL classes - Conquerante and Gardienne (but the Conquerante could be the previously mentioned Conqueror class).

In addition, it was highlighted that Haven's Battleships did not field capital missiles, indicating they used CA/BC class missiles or another intermediate class missile. The implications of which are that while they have the tube count to go toe to toe with a Waller, their smaller missiles do not do the damage of the larger ships, and have weaker penaids - so even with a moderate numerical advantage, BBs can't go toe to toe with an SD. BBs would probably need a 4 or 6 to 1 advantage in the missile space to get parity with an SD (where BCs need a 8:1 ratio to get parity).

Overall, a good read, but noting new, just filling in the spaces in the story from interesting perspectives. Definitely worth the read, but does not move any existing bars.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 09, 2024 12:08 pm

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I need to pick up the final copy and see if the various issues I'd noted in a pre-release copy got resolved.

To be fair, many of which were with apparent errors the math for ship speed, acceleration, and distance; which is a fairly nitpicky thing to complain about :D (As is the hyper velocity bleed-off making a stated problem actually irrelevant)

But there were also some where it appeared inconsistent with itself (which I assume the editors would catch) or with previous books' information about the same events.

And at least one timeline issue where Honor refers to "Admiral Cluster Bomb" -- a nickname given to McQueen based on an event that was still several years in the future. Oops.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Theemile   » Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:32 pm

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Theemile wrote:<snip>

In addition, it was highlighted that Haven's Battleships did not field capital missiles, indicating they used CA/BC class missiles or another intermediate class missile. The implications of which are that while they have the tube count to go toe to toe with a Waller, their smaller missiles do not do the damage of the larger ships, and have weaker penaids - so even with a moderate numerical advantage, BBs can't go toe to toe with an SD. BBs would probably need a 4 or 6 to 1 advantage in the missile space to get parity with an SD (where BCs need a 8:1 ratio to get parity).

<snip>


Before I posted, I should have checked Jaynes. Both The Triumphant BB and the Nouveau Paris Class Dreadnought is in the PRN Jaynes. Both are listed as using the L13(a) Capital Missile, but use 2 different mod of launchers. Be interesting to see how this datum falls out.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:12 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Theemile wrote:<snip>

In addition, it was highlighted that Haven's Battleships did not field capital missiles, indicating they used CA/BC class missiles or another intermediate class missile. The implications of which are that while they have the tube count to go toe to toe with a Waller, their smaller missiles do not do the damage of the larger ships, and have weaker penaids - so even with a moderate numerical advantage, BBs can't go toe to toe with an SD. BBs would probably need a 4 or 6 to 1 advantage in the missile space to get parity with an SD (where BCs need a 8:1 ratio to get parity).
<snip>


Before I posted, I should have checked Jaynes. Both The Triumphant BB and the Nouveau Paris Class Dreadnought is in the PRN Jaynes. Both are listed as using the L13(a) Capital Missile, but use 2 different mod of launchers. Be interesting to see how this datum falls out.

Ah, and that's an inconsistency I'd missed and didn't have on my list - or maybe a change in the book.

I'm rechecking the advance copy I've got and the closest thing I'm seeing is in the Mathias System segment where it might imply that the Peep BBs weren't firing capital ships missiles. That's where it states that the Manticorans were firing capital ship missiles - and going on to state their advantages. But that could potentially be read as the RMN capital missiles were that much better than the Peep capital ship missiles.
But also, looking through that passage the Peep ships are said to have 46 tubes in their broadsides; which doesn't line up with the 30 tubes the Triumphant-class is said to carry not only in Jaynes, but also in ToH later in the Sigismund Alpha,
Slocum System section.

Also I note that in the Mathias System chapter it doesn't give the ship class(es) of the Peep BBs. So maybe, maybe, we're looking at a previously unmentioned class of Peep BBs, ones carrying more and thus, yes, likely lighter missile tubes than the Triumphants.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:20 pm

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Also looking through the Mathias section again reminded me how much it annoyed me that the advance release copy misstated the in-universe physics of the "Lee Manouver" and thus a critical point was wrong.

"But thanks to the translation's velocity bleed, its normal-space velocity was only 7,306 KPS, and at 337 gravities of deceleration, that would reduce to zero relative to Smaragdenio in about thirty-six minutes." Except this only accounted for the first of two velocity bleeds. Yes, you lose 92% of your velocity entering the Alpha bands -- but you then lose 92% of that remaining 8% when you reenter normal space. Those ships should have emerged at nearly a dead stop (well, in Honorverse terms. Less than 600 KPS); requiring less than 3 few minutes to cancel out.

Hopefully that got fixed in the final release. It's not like the extra 33 minutes was plot critical.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Mycall4me   » Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:15 pm

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Theemile wrote:Toll of Honor is broke into 2 books, and spans the period from the end of the Battle of Hancock to several months after the Battle of Nightengale, paralleling the last few chapters of SVW, all of FoD, and the first part of HiE.

Brandy Bolego is not the heroine of the book, but is the mechanism on which the book moves forward. The book tells the previous stories form another point of view. Bolego is occasionally the main PoV character, but not always. While she is the center of the story, the story isn't hers, she's mainly just near the events happening around her on a grand scale.

As such, the 1st portion of the book doesn't really give us anything new, but tells points of view which show how badly the actions of the Manty opposition parties, and their use of the Young court martial, freeze the RMN when it should be able to sally out and take the fight further into Haven controlled space and make true dividends before the new Havenite leadership reforms and learns it's job.

The RMN is initially able to use it's most ambitious pre-war retaliatory plan to follow up the initial Havenite strikes, but further action is stymied as the RMN needs funding and supplies beyond that provided in it's yearly maintenance and training budgets to continue fighting, and to ramp up munitions and parts production to supply their forces in an environment where active operations are putting years of scheduled peacetime use on parts in mere months, let alone that required to repair battle damage. Fleets ready for battle sit for half a year - half a year that gives the New Havenite leadership time to sort itself out.

The 2nd half is 6th fleet taking the fight to the Havenites on the "northern" theater, pushing to Trevor's star. Several systems are quickly taken, and the Havenite PoV characters are universally jr officers elevated 4 or 5 levels to command positions they know they are unprepared for, and sadistic People's Commissioners elevated even further.

Before Nightengale, all the RMN runs into is pickets of a handful of BBs with escorts or smaller, none of the wall. We find out about "collective guilt" - every Havenite Navy member is being forced to serve - and serve well - or their family will pay the price. No one can afford to look like they are being defeatist or not doing their duty, for fear of reprecussions to their family. Nightengale is the first time 6th fleet meets wallers, and the ill timed trap there is the first sign of the Havenite's wall - and their command teams having learned their jobs.

After several smaller actions, the Prince Adrian (as well as other ships) are rotated home as constant warfighting has worn them out, despite the heroic work of engineering staffs and support ships.

The back thread of the Book is Harkness and Bancock's relationship getting closer and closer, ending in Harkness taking a debilitating round for Iris in a boarding action, which results in their getting married. (not in the book).

Points of Note. The PRN Tonnare class BC is mentioned for the first time in cannon (it was mentioned in a Jayne's filler paragraph), and 2 new CL classes - Conquerante and Gardienne (but the Conquerante could be the previously mentioned Conqueror class).

In addition, it was highlighted that Haven's Battleships did not field capital missiles, indicating they used CA/BC class missiles or another intermediate class missile. The implications of which are that while they have the tube count to go toe to toe with a Waller, their smaller missiles do not do the damage of the larger ships, and have weaker penaids - so even with a moderate numerical advantage, BBs can't go toe to toe with an SD. BBs would probably need a 4 or 6 to 1 advantage in the missile space to get parity with an SD (where BCs need a 8:1 ratio to get parity).

Overall, a good read, but noting new, just filling in the spaces in the story from interesting perspectives. Definitely worth the read, but does not move any existing bars.


To me it felt more like a few short stories and a novella.

It was interesting to get the back stories, and different viewpoints on things I already knew. I am not complaining or insisting that David write what I want, and I am willing to follow where he leads, but I hope that it won't be a long journey before he returns to a new story arc leading on from where the last one ended.

PS I think you meant FiE "Flag in Exile"
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by markusschaber   » Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:20 am

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Theemile wrote:The back thread of the Book is Harkness and Bancock's relationship getting closer and closer, ending in Harkness taking a debilitating round for Iris in a boarding action, which results in their getting married. (not in the book).


I think I read of that shooting in some other book (at least a scene at the hospital after everything), maybe it was part of a short story or free story?
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by justdave   » Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:27 pm

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To me it felt more like a few short stories and a novella.

It was interesting to get the back stories, and different viewpoints on things I already knew. I am not complaining or insisting that David write what I want, and I am willing to follow where he leads, but I hope that it won't be a long journey before he returns to a new story arc leading on from where the last one ended.

MWM said at a recent con he wanted to make it clear that the RMN would have defeated Haven quickly if the High Ridge Government had declared war at that time.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:03 pm

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justdave wrote:MWM said at a recent con he wanted to make it clear that the RMN would have defeated Haven quickly if the High Ridge Government had declared war at that time.

I mean it's his universe - but I have a hard time believing that even with immediate war emergency funding that the RMN could have kept up the pace long enough to decisively defeat enough of the Peep's pre-war fleet or enough of their yards, to quickly win the war. Wars just aren't usually won at the rush like that.

Now I could easily believe that they could have had enough momentum to overrun Trevor's Star, and maybe even some of the big pre-war naval bases. (And that probably would have shaved years off the war -- but there's a huge difference between winning the war quicker and winning the war quickly)

I don't think they could have kept enough ships on the front lines, or had sufficient logistics, to have actually cut their across the hundreds of lightyears, and many dozens of systems, to take the orbitals over Haven and force and end to the war. They just didn't have a large enough fleet, and even with full wartime funding letting them lay down as many hulls as they want, new wallers laid down today are still 18+ months from completion. Every ship that's lost, every ships that sent back for months in the yard, reduced their ability to push forward. (And that's assuming they're willing to keep the fleet together and pressing forward - diverting none of its heavy hitters to secure captured systems. Yet, at an absolute minimum they'd hold a significant fleet at Trevor's Star)


So win quicker I could believe. Win quickly not so much.

Edit - Actually I just realized one way they might. If their initial larger rush, that overran Trevor's Star triggered one or more coups or breakaways against the Pierre regime. If significant parts of the Peep fleet turned on itself, or broke away, or if Pierre was overthrown, then it might be possible to defeat Haven (get a peace Manticore can live with) without fighting all the way to Haven itself though the massive pre-war Peep fleet.
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Re: Spoilers - Toll of Honor
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:37 am

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markusschaber wrote:
Theemile wrote:The back thread of the Book is Harkness and Bancock's relationship getting closer and closer, ending in Harkness taking a debilitating round for Iris in a boarding action, which results in their getting married. (not in the book).


I think I read of that shooting in some other book (at least a scene at the hospital after everything), maybe it was part of a short story or free story?


"A Travesty of Nature", published a couple years ago in the anthology _Onward Libertycon_ (BTW, Libertycon is an SF convention in Chattanooga that was founded by one Richard Bolgeo and his daughter Brandy is still active in the Con committee).
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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