Wormhole transit commands between the Captain and Engineer

tlb wrote:I am quite certain that the author was insistent that there would not be a purely automatic transit of a wormhole. So the sample is NOT biased; that is how the author intends to write every wormhole transit.

I think the reasoning is as follows: if a wormhole can be transitioned in a purely automatic way then there is nothing stopping the construction of a drone than can make a transition and he is adamant that such things will not appear in the Honorverse.

And all of the steps in those manual transits could be automated, even with 1990s technology. It may not be safe with that technology, but today it certainly would be.

So the author has decreed it doesn't happen. Fine, we can't argue with that. I'm still saying it's mostly automatic. The captain and the engineer are reading the numbers off a computer console and there's a green bar showing how healthy the transit is, and a needle showing the optimal energy readings for running the hypergenerator. It's foolproof enough that a cadet could make a transit. After all, private ships like couriers and yachts do it all the time.

Either that or the retelling of the manual transit left a lot out. When I said that airliners can land themselves, I oversimplified it: we have the technology to do it, but we don't. The process of setting up an autoland system, especially when the conditions aren't ideal, is not trivial. There are a lot of steps to achieve the right conditions; only specially-trained pilots (and then usually only a captain) are even allowed to attempt this, because they have to monitor a lot of things in case the autopilot gets it wrong, then take over and execute a go-around.

[In the extremely-unlikely and never-happened case of every competent pilot eating the fish dinner and the steward(ess) having to ask if anyone can land the plane, a lay person could be talked into doing it with the autoland. The Mythbusters did it about a decade ago (in the episode Adam Savage got confused about the "don't think" warning from the cockpit).]

This scenario is actually more likely. All we've heard of hyper transits is basically "push a button", but the physics of it must be very complex. That means there are smart systems in the background handling most of the tasks, so the crew aboard the ship don't have to handle everything. The automatics take care of everything, so long as it's within parameters. A wormhole transit shouldn't be too different.

Purpose of plot.
To invade via a wormhole just send as many automatic drone pod carriers as you can in to fire off as much in munitions in as short a time as you can.
As it stands, you don't want to sentence loyal staff to certain death.

tlb wrote:I am quite certain that the author was insistent that there would not be a purely automatic transit of a wormhole. So the sample is NOT biased; that is how the author intends to write every wormhole transit.

I think the reasoning is as follows: if a wormhole can be transitioned in a purely automatic way then there is nothing stopping the construction of a drone than can make a transition and he is adamant that such things will not appear in the Honorverse.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And all of the steps in those manual transits could be automated, even with 1990s technology. It may not be safe with that technology, but today it certainly would be.

So the author has decreed it doesn't happen. Fine, we can't argue with that. I'm still saying it's mostly automatic. The captain and the engineer are reading the numbers off a computer console and there's a green bar showing how healthy the transit is, and a needle showing the optimal energy readings for running the hypergenerator. It's foolproof enough that a cadet could make a transit. After all, private ships like couriers and yachts do it all the time.

Either that or the retelling of the manual transit left a lot out. When I said that airliners can land themselves, I oversimplified it: we have the technology to do it, but we don't. The process of setting up an autoland system, especially when the conditions aren't ideal, is not trivial. There are a lot of steps to achieve the right conditions; only specially-trained pilots (and then usually only a captain) are even allowed to attempt this, because they have to monitor a lot of things in case the autopilot gets it wrong, then take over and execute a go-around.

[In the extremely-unlikely and never-happened case of every competent pilot eating the fish dinner and the steward(ess) having to ask if anyone can land the plane, a lay person could be talked into doing it with the autoland. The Mythbusters did it about a decade ago (in the episode Adam Savage got confused about the "don't think" warning from the cockpit).]

This scenario is actually more likely. All we've heard of hyper transits is basically "push a button", but the physics of it must be very complex. That means there are smart systems in the background handling most of the tasks, so the crew aboard the ship don't have to handle everything. The automatics take care of everything, so long as it's within parameters. A wormhole transit shouldn't be too different.

The British TV show QI (for Quite Interesting) has stated that the experiment of putting experienced private pilots into a commercial airline simulator, and having them try to land the plane, has been tried and everyone failed. This is assuming that one of the cockpit crew unlocked the door before succumbing.

I will agree that if the author had wanted, then "all of the steps in those manual transits could be automated" could be realized. But the following will never be true in the Honorverse:

Daryl wrote:To invade via a wormhole just send as many automatic drone pod carriers as you can in to fire off as much in munitions in as short a time as you can.
As it stands, you don't want to sentence loyal staff to certain death.

tlb wrote:

Mycall4me wrote:Well, maybe I might agree, except for one thing, in every book in the series that have a scene with a description of a wormhole transit (at least three) the do it just as described in a manual fashion.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's a biased sample. RFC only told us the story of when they did it manually; there was nothing to tell when the transit was mostly automatic.

That's not to say there's no human participation. I expect that there's still some set up before and the human-in-the-loop is monitoring the read outs to ensure everything is going according to plan. But that's boring and not worthy of retelling in the book.

I am quite certain that the author was insistent that there would not be a purely automatic transit of a wormhole. So the sample is NOT biased; that is how the author intends to write every wormhole transit.

I think the reasoning is as follows: if a wormhole can be transitioned in a purely automatic way then there is nothing stopping the construction of a drone than can make a transition and he is adamant that such things will not appear in the Honorverse.

Thank you. Now THAT is what I was looking for. That was why I started this thread bc I wanted to make sense of something that I've been wondering about since I first read OBS.

Mycall4me wrote:Thank you. Now THAT is what I was looking for. That was why I started this thread bc I wanted to make sense of something that I've been wondering about since I first read OBS.

Indeed. But that's an out-of-Universe explanation. It's the reason why he doesn't want it to happen, but it doesn't explain in-Universe why the characters can't make it happen. Especially because the description of the steps are rather simple and are definitely something we could automate with our technology today.

I'll choose to believe there was a lot more going on behind the scenes and that there were far more people involved than the captain and the chief engineer, but RFC only told us a portion of it.

Either that or suspend disbelief.

Mycall4me wrote:I've always wondered what the reason was for the Captain of a ship making a transit to have to do the verbal back and forth with her engineer, and why the Captain is watching the readouts on how much power the forward sail is drawing etc.

My two cents, worth less since the pandemic. So, here is my penny.

The Captain is watching the readouts so she will know when she will get a surge in forward momentum; the point where the transition from impeller to sail provides that forward momentum. When the turbo boost will kick in, as it were.

MyCall4Me wrote:Would it make more sense to have this more automated? Or completely automated and run by computer command? Or to have the engineer watching readouts as opposed to the captain?

I don't think so. If you were asking if it is possible to automate the entire process, then perhaps. But that is not what you are asking. You are asking if it would be better to have it automated. I don't think so.

MyCall4Me wrote:I've wondered about this since I read OBS, when Honor took Fearless through the junction to Basilisk. And I was reminded of this question when Ginger Lewis takes the Charles Ward through the junction to Lynx in SoV. I wasn't a registered user when I read OBS, but, now that I am....

It just seems like the possibility of human error, which is often mentioned by RFC about the margin of error that a captain has when calling out the appropriate command, bc no captain wanted to look sloppy when transitioning to sail (or words to that effect)

So, IS there a good reason for this, or is it just artistic license?

To understand my stance, let's look at some current world analogues. Let's consider cars with self-drive capabilities. There are people who fall asleep at the wheel while their cars are in self-drive mode. That is not what one should do. Why? Because the computer can not be programmed for the unexpected.

Autopilot should be engaged as an emergency, it should not be the default. I would imagine that there are lots of unexpected things that can crop up that might confound a computer. Like, say, an unauthorized visit by an enemy fleet theoretically dropping out of hyper guns blazing. Or a runaway ship controlled by a computer -- or an idiot or an assassin -- on the blitz.

In Driver's Education in my day, we were taught to always be prepared to maneuver your vehicle in an emergency. That required our hands to always be placed at the 10 to 2 position. A driver might not have time to react to an emergency situation by moving his hands from any position -- other than the recommended placement -- which allows for inefficient control of the steering wheel, i.e., unable to achieve the complete range (turn to turn) of the steering wheel.

I think the same concept applies, especially for the navy. WH transits should not be automated. This is the navy, not a civilian craft. A naval ship should always be prepared for an emergency maneuver. Split seconds could make the difference between life and death.

And we know that a Captain can handle her ship. Honor can do a 3-point road turn with Fearless down an aisle in the grocery store. Consider her blowing out the nodes of Coglin's dispatch boat in OBS.

And let's be real, would anyone feel safer flying in a plane that is being flown by a computer? Or a driverless car?

People are bullying autonomous taxis by placing an orange traffic cone directly on the hood which confuses them. Or one directly in the highway in front of it.

Point being, the navy should not automate the process. There are too many things that can go wrong. As far as looking sloppy, well, all that means is that a perfectly smooth landing of a 747 as opposed to a little less perfect. Still alive on both, but a little choppy on one.

I am also unsure if the Chief Engineer's readings would be as accurate as the Captain's, since the bulk of the ship's sensors would be concentrated directly on the WH. And I am none too sure that the WH's readings do not vary, enough, whereas a Captain should be ready to "compensate".

penny wrote:Point being, the navy should not automate the process. There are too many things that can go wrong. As far as looking sloppy, well, all that means is that a perfectly smooth landing of a 747 as opposed to a little less perfect. Still alive on both, but a little choppy on one.

I am also unsure if the Chief Engineer's readings would be as accurate as the Captain's, since the bulk of the ship's sensors would be concentrated directly on the WH. And I am none too sure that the WH's readings do not vary, enough, whereas a Captain should be ready to "compensate".

The interesting thing about this discussion is that we know the RMN has greatly increased automation as the series progressed; which is what allowed the manpower requirements for ships to decrease and it was noted at that time a ship simply could not be run without computers. However the author has not explained what that increased automation did (other than reduce manpower) nor what it could not do.

As to whether readings might differ between Engineering and the Bridge, I should hope not since they both has access to the same sensors. Different readings would seem to indicate something faulty in the system. Note that the Captain does not man the helm, that was Chief Killian in OBS; so I am not sure how the Captain could "compensate". The main thing that the Bridge does, which need not concern Engineering, is to observe the traffic lanes and ship's spacing.

tlb wrote:As to whether readings might differ between Engineering and the Bridge, I should hope not since they both has access to the same sensors. Different readings would seem to indicate something faulty in the system.

Depends on what you mean by "different".

The readings definitely shouldn't disagree.

But it's not implausible that engineering has supplemental detail on their displays -- things the bridge shouldn't normally have to think about; like additional low level details that are used to stay atop of tuning of the nodes, or seeing that something is getting worn and will soon require preventive maintenance (or replacement). It might be possible that the chief engineer, looking at the full engineering displays rather than a bridge summary display, might see something that could affect this transit in a way the automated system hasn't yet alerted the bridge to.

Mycall4me wrote:

tlb wrote:I am quite certain that the author was insistent that there would not be a purely automatic transit of a wormhole. So the sample is NOT biased; that is how the author intends to write every wormhole transit.

I think the reasoning is as follows: if a wormhole can be transitioned in a purely automatic way then there is nothing stopping the construction of a drone than can make a transition and he is adamant that such things will not appear in the Honorverse.

Thank you. Now THAT is what I was looking for. That was why I started this thread bc I wanted to make sense of something that I've been wondering about since I first read OBS.

Have you read the Starfire novels? If you have, the limitations upon Honorverse wormholes make a lot more sense. RFC co-wrote Insurrection and Crusade shortly before OBS got published.

In the Starfire universe, there is no FTL travel except by wormholes(called warp points), which link various systems in chain-like arrangements. There are exceptions, but this means battles in that universe frequently take place as contested wormhole transits, with defenders shooting at emerging attackers then falling back to the next system if they fail or becoming the attackers and pushing forwards. Wars involve grinding through many, many warp point assaults.

It adds up even more when you realise that the liberation of Trevor's Star(which involved a massed wormhole transit) took place offscreen at roughly the same time In Death Ground was being written. Once you add up all the warp assaults in those four novels, it's no surprise the Honorverse didn't provide us with one until Uncompromising Honor.

If you haven't read them yet, note that Insurrection is chronologically the last story although it was published first.

munroburton wrote:If you haven't read them yet, note that Insurrection is chronologically the last story although it was published first.

Well, the last story David Weber contributed to. His co-author went on to much later write some additional stories set after Insurrection; though I fell off reading those at some point.