How can an empathic species kill so easily?

penny wrote:In fact, if man was as empathic as the cats, I'd imagine there would be a lot of conscientious objectors when it comes to war. I can even see the act of drafting becoming a very cruel and heartless matter.

But perhaps war would become a thing of the past with total empathy guiding policy, politics and doctrine.

Empathy would bring those you know and love together, but that could also unite your group even more against an outside threat. Cats have the additional advantage of telepathy; without that you can sense fear and suspicion, without being able to address their causes. Instead fear, suspicion and hatred of the outsider breeds more fear, suspicion and hatred on the other side amplified by that empathy. If two people approach each other, each with palpable hatred of the other, then death seems inevitable.

Moreover, modern warfare is rarely face to face. Does empathy work well at rifle ranges, much less at the range of a laser guided bomb? You are going to be much more in tune with those on your side, rather than those on the other.

If you look at the series, The Yawata Strike was nothing like anything treecats had experienced in the memories passed down by Memory Singers. Not wild fires, not floods, not any other natural event. That clan was wiped out - and a massive number of cats within connection range, particularly any cat bonded to a member of the clan as well as absent members- experienced the horrific death of every cat in the part of the debris fall that hit their area.

The other thing to remember is that the survivors-mostly at great distances- and every other cat on the planet quickly found out that it was NOT a natural occurrence, that it was something inflicted on the planet (and shortly found out it something that happened in treater or lessor extent to all three planets in the system.

That pain and fear and horror was broadcast as they saw death coming and shared their terror and pain with everyone who they had the telepathic connection.

An enemy of the Two Legs did this. Not for something the Clan had done....it was something that happened because that enemy did not care if anyone was killed by the fire falling from the sky. And they killed innocents/kittens. Part of the earliest information about Treecats is that they approach dangerous enemies in terms of just two views- those who have been killed and those who are not yet dead. The horror of the dead is not going to be a story told and perhaps lose it's sting after those who experienced the contact by the dying....oh no...the full memory will be passed along by Memory Singers for generation after generation experiencing the same pain and impact.

The Alignment has lit a fire that may literally search them down till either they or the Treecats are extinct. Treecat scout/hunters with a blood feud.......not an adversary I would like to have looking for me,

Brigade XO wrote:If you look at the series, The Yawata Strike was nothing like anything treecats had experienced in the memories passed down by Memory Singers. Not wild fires, not floods, not any other natural event. That clan was wiped out - and a massive number of cats within connection range, particularly any cat bonded to a member of the clan as well as absent members- experienced the horrific death of every cat in the part of the debris fall that hit their area.

The other thing to remember is that the survivors-mostly at great distances- and every other cat on the planet quickly found out that it was NOT a natural occurrence, that it was something inflicted on the planet (and shortly found out it something that happened in treater or lessor extent to all three planets in the system.

That pain and fear and horror was broadcast as they saw death coming and shared their terror and pain with everyone who they had the telepathic connection.

An enemy of the Two Legs did this. Not for something the Clan had done....it was something that happened because that enemy did not care if anyone was killed by the fire falling from the sky. And they killed innocents/kittens. Part of the earliest information about Treecats is that they approach dangerous enemies in terms of just two views- those who have been killed and those who are not yet dead. The horror of the dead is not going to be a story told and perhaps lose it's sting after those who experienced the contact by the dying....oh no...the full memory will be passed along by Memory Singers for generation after generation experiencing the same pain and impact.

The Alignment has lit a fire that may literally search them down till either they or the Treecats are extinct. Treecat scout/hunters with a blood feud.......not an adversary I would like to have looking for me,

Brigade, this is a very interesting and thought provoking post. I had to give myself some time to digest it, and its implications. It almost brings me to tears. I have always been a very empathetic creature myself.

There are a lot of questions that this post begs an answer to. During the Yawata Strike, did the Cats try to shield the younger cats from the horror of it all? My first thought is that it would be cruel to share that kind of horror with adolescent cats who were at a safe enough distance away. I seem to recall textev -- although the details are spotty -- that the younger cats have not learned to dial their empathy down. Although it might have been impossible to assuage such powerful emotions that overtook them so suddenly as someone said. But I seem to recall something about the Memory Singers having a PG-Rated version of some of their songs for the younger cats??? The Yawata Strike would certainly be one of those songs if I am correct.

But the human part of me has a hard time imagining the Memory Singers playing a song that is so sad as the Yawata Strike. Talk about listening to the saddest song in the world on your turntable. Complete with all of the associated emotion and pain.

Why would the Yawata song be played in its full glory for adolescent cats? It affects me greatly just thinking about it.

Very nice post Brigade.

It occurs to me that literally feeling someone else's emotions is quite different from what we usually mean by empathy.

In an extreme example a 'cat that can feel the joy from a murderous sadist torturing a victim to death might well be more moved to kill by that empathic sense -- avenging the victim and protecting society from someone so dangerous.

An empathetic human can't be sure what motivated the killing and might try to 'put themselves in the other's shoes' speculating about what the killer might have been thinking, or what might have shaped them that way. Whereas the 'cat would have no doubt how much they enjoyed causing pain and death.

penny wrote:My first thought is that it would be cruel to share that kind of horror with adolescent cats who were at a safe enough distance away. I seem to recall textev -- although the details are spotty -- that the younger cats have not learned to dial their empathy down. Although it might have been impossible to assuage such powerful emotions that overtook them so suddenly as someone said. But I seem to recall something about the Memory Singers having a PG-Rated version of some of their songs for the younger cats??? The Yawata Strike would certainly be one of those songs if I am correct.

But the human part of me has a hard time imagining the Memory Singers playing a song that is so sad as the Yawata Strike. Talk about listening to the saddest song in the world on your turntable. Complete with all of the associated emotion and pain.

Why would the Yawata song be played in its full glory for adolescent cats? It affects me greatly just thinking about it.

The Yawata Strike is not something that Memory Singers would likely pass on to adolescent cats or kittens.

The problem it that when the Clan was mostly destroyed, it was both fast and happening in real time- NOT a memory song. Any cat who was in-range and or linked to members of the Clan who were killed effectively got everything the individuals who were dying or who managed to survive even for a short while after the initial impacts. They received their thoughts and felt their anguish as they died.

There was no buffer, no preparation, no help/aid or comfort to those consumed in the debris fall. I guess the closest you could compare it in fiction (but this is too unfocused) would be what Kenobi felt when Alderan was destroyed,.......but he was NOT a telepath with direct telepathic and empathic direct links to others of his species who were engulfed.

Jonathan_S wrote:It occurs to me that literally feeling someone else's emotions is quite different from what we usually mean by empathy.

Very good post Jonathan. You recognize the complexity of the arguments.

But I am going to have to challenge this one very crucial point. Empathy is predicated upon being able to feel another's emotions. A psychopath is unfeeling. Completely devoid of emotions. Detached from being able to feel what a victim is feeling. Cold. Dispassionate.

Being able to feel someones emotions is being able to put oneself into the other's shoes. Being able to put oneself into the other's shoes is the prerequisite for empathy. If you are in another's shoes, then it is your head on the chopping block too. You are right in it with them. Thus, the cat's ability to feel what another entity is feeling should actually increase the chances of connecting with the victim by fielding the situation and understanding the connection on an even higher level. Transcendence if you will. An almost spiritual connection.

Do digest the link below comparing empathy and sympathy. Please take time to watch the very short funny video. You won't be sorry.

https://www.6seconds.org/2021/01/20/emp ... ifference/

Funny video: https://youtu.be/KZBTYViDPlQ

Jonathan_S wrote:In an extreme example a 'cat that can feel the joy from a murderous sadist torturing a victim to death might well be more moved to kill by that empathic sense -- avenging the victim and protecting society from someone so dangerous.

That is probably true. But it exhibits a very fine line between judge and jury. A treecat can only read emotions, not minds. The victim might actually have previously been a very kind, gentle and docile person turned murderous sadistic killer because of some trauma he experienced to his loved ones.

Jonathan_S wrote:An empathetic human can't be sure what motivated the killing and might try to 'put themselves in the other's shoes' speculating about what the killer might have been thinking, or what might have shaped them that way. Whereas the 'cat would have no doubt how much they enjoyed causing pain and death.

I can agree with this in part, but I am not quite sure I can agree with it in whole, because a treecat cannot be certain what motivated the killings either. Do see the funny clip above regarding empathy vs sympathy. At any rate, a cat cannot read minds, only emotions. A cat is able to feel the joy the victim felt for his deed, but not what drives the deed. Although perhaps a cat can parse the emotions given enough time. (Consider Harahap.) More on that below. But to be fair, your notion certainly warrants discussion, and might actually ring true at the end of the day. We are proceeding with limited information.

Consider this comparison between empathy and compassion, which supports your notion, at least in part.

https://www.verywellmind.com/compassion ... %20actions.

It states: You are more likely to feel compassion for people if you avoid blaming the victim for their own suffering.

Treecats have a direct line to victims' emotions (like you said) but not their mindset. It might or might not be their mindset that is responsible for their own suffering. A mindset that might hate what they are doing at the end of the day, or have to do, on some level. But they have to do it anyway, for Queen and Country, and for moral beliefs for what one stands for. But in your defense, perhaps their emotions should broadcast hate about what they are doing on some level. Like Harahap. And some of the officers in the People's Navy.

But is it enough? Does knowing someone is responsible for their own suffering alleviate the pain in having to kill them? What if someones suffering is symptomatic of social injustice. Poverty. Mental disease, etc.? A cat cannot see that deep into the problem, thus cause.

A very poignant example comes to mind with compulsion. Someone under compulsion is no more responsible for their own actions as someone who is fighting for their own government and people's survival. Remember, the Havenites were once an enemy of the People. But there were good Havenites too. The Manticorans might have cornered the market on trade and caused system wide poverty in the Haven system.

Indeed, the Mesan Alignment are enemies of the People. But the Mesan Alignment feels as if the GA are enemies of their way of life.

On an absolute level, which entity is the most morally correct? Both Haven and Manticore have buried the hatchet. The cats might feel anger towards their enemy, but at the end of the day they should still be affected by having to kill them, which is not to say that a cat would regret the kill.

Consider the human part of what many of our mothers had a habit of telling us when we were punished. "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you."

I sure didn't always think so at the time, but I certainly understand now. I personally think it should come close to that for the cats.

Link to the funny video: https://youtu.be/KZBTYViDPlQ

penny wrote:I do not view Treecats as psychopaths, but how can an empathic species kill so easily and not be affected by what the victim is feeling? They must be able to turn their empathy off during attacks.

I don't know the answer to your question. But my approach to this problem is that Treecats' minds just work differently than humans minds. They're an alien species from a different world, with telepathy instead of oral and written communication, completely different culture, etc. Some differences are mentioned in the books and quotes from david weber, he also specifically mentions that their intelligence just works differently than human brains - comparable level, but different characteristics.

So we just cannot extrapolate from what we consider "sane human behaviour" to how treecats' brains ought to work.

markusschaber wrote:

penny wrote:I do not view Treecats as psychopaths, but how can an empathic species kill so easily and not be affected by what the victim is feeling? They must be able to turn their empathy off during attacks.

I don't know the answer to your question. But my approach to this problem is that Treecats' minds just work differently than humans minds. They're an alien species from a different world, with telepathy instead of oral and written communication, completely different culture, etc. Some differences are mentioned in the books and quotes from david weber, he also specifically mentions that their intelligence just works differently than human brains - comparable level, but different characteristics.

So we just cannot extrapolate from what we consider "sane human behaviour" to how treecats' brains ought to work.

I don't think the two minds working differently theory is an acceptable argument. It is essentially the same argument of erroneously looking at it from a human perspective. I think that is a copout. Either Treecats are empathic or not. And if they are ... well, are they psychopathic?

If I had someone in my head all of the time, I would be. We call it hearing voices.

Anyone know the age of the species before they developed empathy and telepathy?

I just had an exchange with munroburton over in the Commodore Tremaine thread about the highest rank of the members of Honor's most intimate inner circle aboard HMS Fearless (CL-56).

Actually I had forgotten about Mercedes Brigham. How could I forget Mercedes Brigham? On Basilisk Station is absolutely my most favored and treasured read in all of the HV.

So, when I looked up the original characters and saw Mercedes' name, I was shocked that I had forgotten her. Why did I?

Well, the drunken wiki was sober this time. But, not to make excuses for myself for forgetting Mercedes Brigham -- because, well ... OBS man! OBS! -- the wiki reminded me of the whole Mai-Ling Jackson thing when along came HMS Madrigal. Now I understand why I had forgotten about Mercedes Brigham.

As I said, I have always had an overabundance of empathy. I used to think it was a curse. Now I realize it is a blessing. But I used to shed tears at the drop of a hat no matter the source. Well, I still do shed quite a few when reading certain scenes in just about any book or movie, horrors in the news, etc., etc. I cried when they shot Old Yeller and when Willie jumped the wall. The Little Princess absolutely tore me asunder, etc., etc., etc.

Well, perhaps my mind shut out the whole ordeal with Mai-Ling Jackson and Mercedes Brigham. That torture scene was just too much for me. It was completely unbearable and I cried like a baby. It is possible that I simply shut it out as humans oftentimes do. Our brains sometimes simply shut out traumatic events because they are, well, too traumatic.

Grasping at straws, could that explain what happens to a cat? The empathy is so strong that their brain shuts out the event and they just don't remember it? Hence, the need for Memory Singers?

Hey, I did say grasping at straws. That is probably the shortest straw.