?

penny wrote:I have to keep stressing the fact that the stealth of the LDs allows them to get so close that traditional tactics and strategy goes out the window. Their doctrine will be totally different as even Honor understands and has stated herself regarding different technology.

Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

One-on-one, maybe. But nothing above the size of a battlecruiser travels alone, and not even BCs these days. You can't get close enough to all ships in a battle squadron to destroy all ships in it. I'd also question the ability of 20 LDs to approach 20 capital ships with their escorts along the way.

Anything other than one-on-one, the LD dies after firing. That exchange rate is in the GA's favour. The MAlign would need to build as many LDs as the GA has of capital ships, cruisers and battlecruisers combined, plus some, and have a replacement rate higher than the GA. Therefore, it's not a sustainable strategy and therefore won't be a tactic the MAN will train for. It's a desperation tactic and, as such, has little chance of changing any strategic outcome.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I have to keep stressing the fact that the stealth of the LDs allows them to get so close that traditional tactics and strategy goes out the window. Their doctrine will be totally different as even Honor understands and has stated herself regarding different technology.

Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

One-on-one, maybe. But nothing above the size of a battlecruiser travels alone, and not even BCs these days. You can't get close enough to all ships in a battle squadron to destroy all ships in it. I'd also question the ability of 20 LDs to approach 20 capital ships with their escorts along the way.

Anything other than one-on-one, the LD dies after firing. That exchange rate is in the GA's favour. The MAlign would need to build as many LDs as the GA has of capital ships, cruisers and battlecruisers combined, plus some, and have a replacement rate higher than the GA. Therefore, it's not a sustainable strategy and therefore won't be a tactic the MAN will train for. It's a desperation tactic and, as such, has little chance of changing any strategic outcome.

But what about a small task force of maybe three or four ships, which are not expecting battle. Like during the opening phases of a war. The crew will not be at battle stations. If an LD is in energy range, and if the gravitic weapon works instantly and the technology affords several very quick shots, then three or four ships taking fire from something that big might be toast.

BTW, can a GA ship quickly and easily target something behind it?

penny wrote:Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

BTW, both of those are gravitic weapons. We do know that if two wedges get too close to each other, the smaller wedge is destroyed. We don't know what effect (if any) that a spider drive might naturally have on a wedge. An LD seems to have an uncanny relationship with gravity.

Both of those weapons are also manipulations of a full power starship wedge. Something that, as far as we know, all spider ships are incapable of producing. (And if a hybrid-drive ship exists that could use spider or wedge the wedge is impossible to hide at crippler or GL range -- so there goes their stealth advantage.

Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

penny wrote:But what about a small task force of maybe three or four ships, which are not expecting battle. Like during the opening phases of a war. The crew will not be at battle stations. If an LD is in energy range, and if the gravitic weapon works instantly and the technology affords several very quick shots, then three or four ships taking fire from something that big might be toast.

BTW, can a GA ship quickly and easily target something behind it?

Task forces that small tend to be made up of small ships, a few cruisers or destroyers. Sure if an LD ambushed them it could likely punch them out -- but so could any (tech equivilent) waller that ambushed such light units. But nobody sane disperses their capital units to pick off the odd minor combatant.

Still, it's not clear what LDs will be used for. I tend to doubt they'd be sent out specifically to hunt down small cruiser/destroyer detachments -- just because that's an inefficient use of their time compared to other things like blowing up major infrastructure and the warships docked to it. Or interdicting the commerce of entire systems (and using grav torps to pick off any light units trying to escort the merchies or search for the LD)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

BTW, both of those are gravitic weapons. We do know that if two wedges get too close to each other, the smaller wedge is destroyed. We don't know what effect (if any) that a spider drive might naturally have on a wedge. An LD seems to have an uncanny relationship with gravity.

Both of those weapons are also manipulations of a full power starship wedge. Something that, as far as we know, all spider ships are incapable of producing. (And if a hybrid-drive ship exists that could use spider or wedge the wedge is impossible to hide at crippler or GL range -- so there goes their stealth advantage.

That might be a factor of the limitations imposed by the current range of their deployment. Again, being able to deploy the weapons from such a close range might alleviate not only the necessary power requirements but also the overall technology necessary to implement them. The ability of the LDs to get in close has the ability to change a lot of variables. I keep stressing that. But I understand, it is difficult to conceive of tactics and strategy afforded by a completely new paradigm of weapons.

Jonathan_S wrote:Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

That still leaves the smaller unshielded GA missiles.

Jonathan'S wrote:

penny wrote:But what about a small task force of maybe three or four ships, which are not expecting battle. Like during the opening phases of a war. The crew will not be at battle stations. If an LD is in energy range, and if the gravitic weapon works instantly and the technology affords several very quick shots, then three or four ships taking fire from something that big might be toast.

BTW, can a GA ship quickly and easily target something behind it?

Task forces that small tend to be made up of small ships, a few cruisers or destroyers. Sure if an LD ambushed them it could likely punch them out -- but so could any (tech equivilent) waller that ambushed such light units. But nobody sane disperses their capital units to pick off the odd minor combatant.

Still, it's not clear what LDs will be used for. I tend to doubt they'd be sent out specifically to hunt down small cruiser/destroyer detachments -- just because that's an inefficient use of their time compared to other things like blowing up major infrastructure and the warships docked to it. Or interdicting the commerce of entire systems (and using grav torps to pick off any light units trying to escort the merchies or search for the LD)

I agree. But I am considering those smaller task forces being destroyed in infrastructure raids. Collateral damage if you will. We all agree that the mainstay of LDs appears to be destroying infrastructure. They will certainly be deployed in rear area raids. Small forces are usually deployed to protect rear areas. And an LD would not want anything to survive to report back to the powers that be.

But there is also the notion of Providence. In the end game where small penny packets of resistance exists, any small remaining forces can find themselves straying into a Spider's web.

I am not touting it as doctrine, but as a last resort or even some sort of emergency capability.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

That still leaves the smaller unshielded GA missiles.

Missiles only drop their wedges when they're about to fire their X-ray laser warheads. They also fire from a stand-off range of up to 50,000 km, and that's against ships protected by wedges and sidewalls. Against an unprotected ship, they could probably fire from further away, which would put them outside the range of the spider tractor.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

That still leaves the smaller unshielded GA missiles.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Missiles only drop their wedges when they're about to fire their X-ray laser warheads. They also fire from a stand-off range of up to 50,000 km, and that's against ships protected by wedges and sidewalls. Against an unprotected ship, they could probably fire from further away, which would put them outside the range of the spider tractor.

That may be a bit presumptuous. We do not know if the specs regarding the tractors is an absolute; if whether the tractors may vary their influence when the LD is at motion versus when it is at rest. Or if the LD can spike (amp up) the tractors range in an emergency. "Gun the engine."

Please pardon my snip and transplant. I want to respond to you both in kind.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I have to keep stressing the fact that the stealth of the LDs allows them to get so close that traditional tactics and strategy goes out the window. Their doctrine will be totally different as even Honor understands and has stated herself regarding different technology.

Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

One-on-one, maybe. But nothing above the size of a battlecruiser travels alone, and not even BCs these days. You can't get close enough to all ships in a battle squadron to destroy all ships in it. I'd also question the ability of 20 LDs to approach 20 capital ships with their escorts along the way.

Anything other than one-on-one, the LD dies after firing. That exchange rate is in the GA's favour. The MAlign would need to build as many LDs as the GA has of capital ships, cruisers and battlecruisers combined, plus some, and have a replacement rate higher than the GA. Therefore, it's not a sustainable strategy and therefore won't be a tactic the MAN will train for. It's a desperation tactic and, as such, has little chance of changing any strategic outcome.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, it's not clear what LDs will be used for. I tend to doubt they'd be sent out specifically to hunt down small cruiser/destroyer detachments -- just because that's an inefficient use of their time compared to other things like blowing up major infrastructure and the warships docked to it.

Both of you are making the same critical mistake again, by failing to understand that completely new tactics and strategy will be available to an enemy who has introduced a completely new paradigm of weapons.

You are basing your exchange rate on traditional tactics and strategy which is mainly based upon hardware and warships. The LDs can get very close to the enemy, and an exchange rate of only one GA ship is worth the exchange if that ship is commanded by the GA's most valuable officer. I would wager that killing Harrington would be worth the exchange rate of losing an LD for even just one GA ship.

I agree, Harrington is protected by plot. (Thank god.) But Henke and other very important officers (along with the blow to moral that losing those officers would bring) are not.

The MA can wage a war against one of the most valuable assets in the GA. They can go after the GA's most valuable and dangerous officers. Current and up and coming.

A war of attrition of the GA's top Tacticians and Strategists would change the outdated equation into a frightening exchange rate.



Beware double post.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

That still leaves the smaller unshielded GA missiles.

Even if they can work in an anti-missile role, even if they have the combination of area effect and slew rate to manage to tag an incoming missile, there's going to be, what, 8-12 spider emitters on each skeg?

That should give you no more that the equivalent of one extra PDLC worth of defense. You'll take it, but hardly likely to be a missile defense game changer.


Kind of like warships using their main battery grasers/lasers against missiles -- not likely to be particularly effective but what the heck, you might as well. Any missile they do hit is one less for the dedicated anti-missile defenses to deal with.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Spider drives ships have uncanny relationships with tractor beams - but I don't think we've actually been told those are gravity based. And while we're told that a spider project is strong enough to damage an unprotected ships we're also told its even shorter ranged than a GL (as in there's no way you're hiding at that range) and IIRC we were told it'd be ineffective against a ship protected by a sidewall; much less an interposed wedge.

That still leaves the smaller unshielded GA missiles.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if they can work in an anti-missile role, even if they have the combination of area effect and slew rate to manage to tag an incoming missile, there's going to be, what, 8-12 spider emitters on each skeg?

That should give you no more that the equivalent of one extra PDLC worth of defense. You'll take it, but hardly likely to be a missile defense game changer.


Kind of like warships using their main battery grasers/lasers against missiles -- not likely to be particularly effective but what the heck, you might as well. Any missile they do hit is one less for the dedicated anti-missile defenses to deal with.

I disagree Jonathan. Anyway, you are still making that same critical mistake about unprecedented weapons.

If the notion holds water, I would tend to think it would be even more effective than traditional point defense. Point defense is, well, a "point" defense. Traditional point defense only controls one square on the chess board at a time. A tractor used as a missile defense would be more of an "area" defense, as you said. Like a Rook on the chess board commanding an entire rank. And if the tractor can be swept from side to side and up and down very quickly, well goodbye missiles in job lots.

Late edit And do consider that GA missiles like to hug each other for comfort. But against an area missile defense, that tactic might not be so comforting.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if they can work in an anti-missile role, even if they have the combination of area effect and slew rate to manage to tag an incoming missile, there's going to be, what, 8-12 spider emitters on each skeg?

That should give you no more that the equivalent of one extra PDLC worth of defense. You'll take it, but hardly likely to be a missile defense game changer.


Kind of like warships using their main battery grasers/lasers against missiles -- not likely to be particularly effective but what the heck, you might as well. Any missile they do hit is one less for the dedicated anti-missile defenses to deal with.

I disagree Jonathan. Anyway, you are still making that same critical mistake about unprecedented weapons.

If the notion holds water, I would tend to think it would be even more effective than traditional point defense. Point defense is, well, a "point" defense. Traditional point defense only controls one square on the chess board at a time. A tractor used as a missile defense would be more of an "area" defense, as you said. Like a Rook on the chess board commanding an entire rank. And if the tractor can be swept from side to side and up and down very quickly, well goodbye missiles in job lots.

While we're stuck working off of limited information, we know that a normal ship tractor covers an area smaller than a LAC[1] -- so probably less than 600 square meters -- and there's no reason to think a spider's overpowered tractor would be orders of magnitude larger in footprint.

But the area you'd need to sweep, at 50,000 km (laserhead standoff range) is - well - a lot larger than that. Like the better part of 11 million times larger than that!

That disparity means you're still going to need to aim the emitter at specific missiles; just sweeping it around isn't going to accomplish much. (Especially as there's no reason to expect that a drive component whose mount needs to handle pulling a non-trivial fraction of the ships mass is going to be able to pivot with the blinding speed of a PDLC mount -- the connection between the spider emitters and the rest of the hull needs to be designed for strength; not rapid aiming. So it probably can't sweep at particularly high angular rates)

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[1] Because Thunder of God/Saladin needed "three tractors to zone each of them".