Spider drive ships

Currently re reading Honor Harrington series to ready myself for Toll of Honor, and I'm up to Mission of Honor. I had forgotten that the triple skeg hull of a spider drive ship allowed for 3 broadside weapons ports. But it does have some equal disadvantages to go along with it's advantages. The lack of any kind of serious acceleration capabilities HAS to be a major thing that can be exploited in any kind of attack, also the no impeller or sidewall has to hurt. The problem is going to be finding or seeing them to attack in the first damn place!

They could have a spherical sidewall, but then they would be visible and could not move; so that would be silly. However another option would be to have both the spider drive and an wedge drive with compensator, since the LD class could be big enough to support both. The triple keel would not cause the wedge drive a problem, since the alpha and beta nodes are at the bow and stern. One set of nodes have to be there already for a pure spider drive, in order to give the ship sails in hyperspace. This assumes that the LD is not over the cutoff mass that makes the compensator ineffective.

Mycall4me wrote:Currently re reading Honor Harrington series to ready myself for Toll of Honor, and I'm up to Mission of Honor. I had forgotten that the triple skeg hull of a spider drive ship allowed for 3 broadside weapons ports. But it does have some equal disadvantages to go along with it's advantages. The lack of any kind of serious acceleration capabilities HAS to be a major thing that can be exploited in any kind of attack, also the no impeller or sidewall has to hurt. The problem is going to be finding or seeing them to attack in the first damn place!

I wonder if they will be able to fire off-bore. A triple broadside.

tlb wrote:They could have a spherical sidewall, but then they would be visible and could not move; so that would be silly. However another option would be to have both the spider drive and an wedge drive with compensator, since the LD class could be big enough to support both. The triple keel would not cause the wedge drive a problem, since the alpha and beta nodes are at the bow and stern. One set of nodes have to be there already for a pure spider drive, in order to give the ship sails in hyperspace. This assumes that the LD is not over the cutoff mass that makes the compensator ineffective.

I think we were told they were going to be massive, so unless they've found a breakthrough for compensation, they'll probably have low acceleration anyway.

At that point, they may be over the overall limit and use only the grav plates for compensation, thus limiting their acceleration still to 150 gravities that the spider would have provided. But at least at that point two aspects are closed by the roof and floor, and sidewalls are possible. But they're still pretty vulnerable at that slow acceleration, and now pretty visible.

I maintain that they have to have some cards up their sleeves (or up their skegs) because as described the LDs make no sense as mobile battle units. Either that or they aren't meant to be in battle at all, which doesn't match what Captain Gowan Maddock though of the new ships that the MAN was building.

tlb wrote:They could have a spherical sidewall, but then they would be visible and could not move; so that would be silly. However another option would be to have both the spider drive and a wedge drive with compensator, since the LD class could be big enough to support both. The triple keel would not cause the wedge drive a problem, since the alpha and beta nodes are at the bow and stern. One set of nodes have to be there already for a pure spider drive, in order to give the ship sails in hyperspace. This assumes that the LD is not over the cutoff mass that makes the compensator ineffective.

based of the description to Lenny Dets sound like they’re well into the tonnage range of forts; so well beyond the approximately 9 mtons the best know compensator can handle.

There’s also a complication that alpha nodes need to be placed within a pretty tight constraint of a given percent of a ships length and maximum possible beam. That’s why starships have that double tapered spindle hull form. They need to neck down the hull to meet the diameter of the impeller rings. Given the weird hull form of a spider ship you might have issues getting the rings in the right spot. (But if there’s any hull or components sticking out then the grav shear of activating the wedge would shred them. You might need to extend the node outwards as if the hull was even bigger - though if they’re already over the compensator limit then simulating being a larger slower ship doesn’t actually matter.

tlb wrote:They could have a spherical sidewall, but then they would be visible and could not move; so that would be silly. However another option would be to have both the spider drive and a wedge drive with compensator, since the LD class could be big enough to support both. The triple keel would not cause the wedge drive a problem, since the alpha and beta nodes are at the bow and stern. One set of nodes have to be there already for a pure spider drive, in order to give the ship sails in hyperspace. This assumes that the LD is not over the cutoff mass that makes the compensator ineffective.

Jonathan_S wrote:based of the description to Lenny Dets sound like they’re well into the tonnage range of forts; so well beyond the approximately 9 mtons the best know compensator can handle.

There’s also a complication that alpha nodes need to be placed within a pretty tight constraint of a given percent of a ships length and maximum possible beam. That’s why starships have that double tapered spindle hull form. They need to neck down the hull to meet the diameter of the impeller rings. Given the weird hull form of a spider ship you might have issues getting the rings in the right spot. (But if there’s any hull or components sticking out then the grav shear of activating the wedge would shred them. You might need to extend the node outwards as if the hull was even bigger - though if they’re already over the compensator limit then simulating being a larger slower ship doesn’t actually matter.

That's fine, at the moment we only know of three classes of spider-drive ships: Ghosts, Sharks and Leonard Detweilers. What if there was a fourth class, that was the size of an SD(P)? And this was the class that had the dual drive system? Then presumably all of the objections could be answered in a workable design; one that had all the speed of a regular warship in its visible state and also the absolute (so far) invisibility of the spider drive.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:based of the description to Lenny Dets sound like they’re well into the tonnage range of forts; so well beyond the approximately 9 mtons the best know compensator can handle.

There’s also a complication that alpha nodes need to be placed within a pretty tight constraint of a given percent of a ships length and maximum possible beam. That’s why starships have that double tapered spindle hull form. They need to neck down the hull to meet the diameter of the impeller rings. Given the weird hull form of a spider ship you might have issues getting the rings in the right spot. (But if there’s any hull or components sticking out then the grav shear of activating the wedge would shred them. You might need to extend the node outwards as if the hull was even bigger - though if they’re already over the compensator limit then simulating being a larger slower ship doesn’t actually matter.

That's fine, at the moment we only know of three classes of spider-drive ships: Ghosts, Sharks and Leonard Detweilers. What if there was a fourth class, that was the size of an SD(P)? And this was the class that had the dual drive system? Then presumably all of the objections could be answered in a workable design; one that had all the speed of a regular warship in its visible state and also the absolute (so far) invisibility of the spider drive.

True, there could be other spider designs that we don't know about.

My suspicion, though I've no way to prove it, is that by the time you got the alpha nodes placed far enough out to avoid shredding and of the spider emitters projecting from those triple skegs that you'd end up with a ship with the compensate area (and acceleration) of an SD but only the tonnage of a small DN or large BB. (If you place the nodes where they'd go on an SD you get SD acceleration; and then you need to shrink the diameter of the spider ship design until no part of it stick out beyond where the hull of said SD would be -- so given the odd shape you probably end up with something with way less volume than an actual SD). Though I don't know if the spider drive would let you build a 'fat' spider ship, where the skegs and hull balloon out amidships (as the mid-section of an impeller drive ship does).

There'd be no real point to doing so except on a dual-drive ship that carried both spider and impeller and so you need to simultaneously work within the limitations of each.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:based of the description to Lenny Dets sound like they’re well into the tonnage range of forts; so well beyond the approximately 9 mtons the best know compensator can handle.

There’s also a complication that alpha nodes need to be placed within a pretty tight constraint of a given percent of a ships length and maximum possible beam. That’s why starships have that double tapered spindle hull form. They need to neck down the hull to meet the diameter of the impeller rings. Given the weird hull form of a spider ship you might have issues getting the rings in the right spot. (But if there’s any hull or components sticking out then the grav shear of activating the wedge would shred them. You might need to extend the node outwards as if the hull was even bigger - though if they’re already over the compensator limit then simulating being a larger slower ship doesn’t actually matter.

That's fine, at the moment we only know of three classes of spider-drive ships: Ghosts, Sharks and Leonard Detweilers. What if there was a fourth class, that was the size of an SD(P)? And this was the class that had the dual drive system? Then presumably all of the objections could be answered in a workable design; one that had all the speed of a regular warship in its visible state and also the absolute (so far) invisibility of the spider drive.

Jonathan_S wrote:True, there could be other spider designs that we don't know about.

My suspicion, though I've no way to prove it, is that by the time you got the alpha nodes placed far enough out to avoid shredding and of the spider emitters projecting from those triple skegs that you'd end up with a ship with the compensate area (and acceleration) of an SD but only the tonnage of a small DN or large BB. (If you place the nodes where they'd go on an SD you get SD acceleration; and then you need to shrink the diameter of the spider ship design until no part of it stick out beyond where the hull of said SD would be -- so given the odd shape you probably end up with something with way less volume than an actual SD). Though I don't know if the spider drive would let you build a 'fat' spider ship, where the skegs and hull balloon out amidships (as the mid-section of an impeller drive ship does).

There'd be no real point to doing so except on a dual-drive ship that carried both spider and impeller and so you need to simultaneously work within the limitations of each.

I am the first to vote for a hybrid system! It should make strategy and tactics very interesting.*

But how? What will be the doctrine of a hybrid ship? Would the spider-drive be used to get an impeller drive deep in-system? If so, the system has to solve the current time necessary to bring the system up. No?

Or will the impeller be showcased from the outset in some specific tactical role, then it "activates its cloaking device."


* I know I am not alone when I say that I cannot wait to see what strategy and tactics the author will come up with for the LDs. Just the thought of the battle scenes gives me a painful stirring down below.

I hadn't considered that the spider drive ships would need alpha nodes for hyper wave travel, I'm pretty sure David doesn't say either way, but it seems to me that the shark class ships were actually carried to Manticore on freighters. Obviously that's not going to be possible for the LD podnaughts, so a dual drive would have to be necessary. This opens up the possibility of detection at least until they go to the spider drive. I wonder why David hasn't mentioned it in his descriptions of the spider drive. Unless I missed it?

I'm currently re reading the series and just finished Mission of Honor which is where he firsts describes the spider drive and it's advantages and disadvantages. Does he reveal any more details in any of the later books?

Mycall4me wrote:I hadn't considered that the spider drive ships would need alpha nodes for hyper wave travel, I'm pretty sure David doesn't say either way, but it seems to me that the shark class ships were actually carried to Manticore on freighters. Obviously that's not going to be possible for the LD podnaughts, so a dual drive would have to be necessary. This opens up the possibility of detection at least until they go to the spider drive. I wonder why David hasn't mentioned it in his descriptions of the spider drive. Unless I missed it?

I'm currently re reading the series and just finished Mission of Honor which is where he firsts describes the spider drive and it's advantages and disadvantages. Does he reveal any more details in any of the later books?

He doesn't really provide more detail on the drive beyond that.

He's said basically in a forum post "why would you assume they can't use wormholes"; but that's not the same thing as explicitly saying those existing spider ship designs can actually use wormholes or grav waves.

And it was the Ghosts that were carried to Manticore (and Grayson) inside freighters. The Sharks tractored themselves together into two clusters before very slowly hypering in to the very fringes of the Manticore system. (And both Ghosts and Sharks presumably self-extracted via hyper after the Oyster Bay attacks)