How can an empathic species kill so easily?

penny wrote:You might be right. But didn't the cats have a problem dialing their empathy down during the Yawata Strike? Which would have been a perfect time to do so.

Fox2! wrote:The Yawata strike was a sudden, massive assault. The Treecats wouldn't have had time to "turn down" their empathic sense before it overwhelmed them.

"You might be right": interesting choice of words when I was agreeing with you.

Also the Yawata Strike was happening to their clan, beings that they loved. Not someone or something that might be tasty or otherwise deserved to die.

If it were possible to turn empathy down when something bad happened to a loved one, then having a bonded person die would not affect the cat as much as it does.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:You might be right. But didn't the cats have a problem dialing their empathy down during the Yawata Strike? Which would have been a perfect time to do so.

Fox2! wrote:The Yawata strike was a sudden, massive assault. The Treecats wouldn't have had time to "turn down" their empathic sense before it overwhelmed them.

"You might be right": interesting choice of words when I was agreeing with you.

Also the Yawata Strike was happening to their clan, beings that they loved. Not someone or something that might be tasty or otherwise deserved to die.

If it were possible to turn empathy down when something bad happened to a loved one, then having a bonded person die would not affect the cat as much as it does.

Well, I was/am just not sure that either one of us is correct. But I am perfectly willing to give the credit to you if "dial it down" is a more accurate description of what takes place.

As far as a bonded pair, I would think that it would be impossible to dial it down, turn it off or disconnect from it in any form or fashion. After all, the definition of bonded comes into play. When a cat is bonded, the two minds become one, permanently. It reminds me of the Vulcan mind meld. During the "meld" the two minds are connected. Anything happens to the one happens to the other. Period.

Fox2! wrote:

penny wrote:You might be right. But didn't the cats have a problem dialing their empathy down during the Yawata Strike? Which would have been a perfect time to do so.

The Yawata strike was a sudden, massive assault. The Treecats wouldn't have had time to "turn down" their empathic sense before it overwhelmed them.

When a mate dies it is also a sudden massive assault; even if it is possible to "dial it down or off" between bonded pairs, which I think it isn't possible anyway.

IIRC, textev states that the ability is not something adolescent cats can do. They have not learned it yet. But that could be me experiencing scene bleed regarding something else.

Something occurred to me. If the cats momentarily turn it off, then there should be a moment of a "kink/weakness/hole in the security system" where they shouldn't be able to detect a miscreant mind-glow. I do not think we have seen any evidence of that one way or the other. But it does not mean it isn't true. Then again, some of the cat's abilities are said to work on different channels.

Joat42 wrote:

penny wrote:But for a cat, it should be different. Worse. Much worse. Cats are predators, yes. But they kill for food. Just like humans. And their prey, these lower life forms have no mind glow. It should be at least as difficult for a treecat to kill a two-leg as it would be for a non psychopathic human to kill another. That should be the nominal difficulty anyway.

Why would it be worse for a cat? You are still looking at this from a human context.

Again, the parser is higher intelligence, not speciation. We shall hope that highly intelligent beings are not psychopaths.

joat42 wrote:They don't kill indiscriminately, they kill for food and self-defense. It's in their nature to do so and they have done so even after they developed telepathic abilities so why would they feel bad about doing something that is entirely natural to them even when they can sense the feelings of the prey? And animals do have mind glows, there's textev for it and one example is when Nimitz stalks a chipmunk I believe.

Again, that is no different than humans. We kill for food as well. We also go to war with each other. It is very difficult for a lot of our servicemen to remain unaffected by their kills. Many of our veterans are forever affected and will never get over it. And again, the cats speak of mindless killing that the hexapumas do. But my point is that an empathic species understands empathy as no other species does. Indeed feels like no other species does. How can an empathic species not be affected by the kills. And not be in danger of being considered as psychopaths.

joat42 wrote:You are also forgetting that cats kill cats when for example friction between clans flare up due to territorial reasons, and that would objectively be even worse than a cat killing a human because cats have complete 2-way communication.

In other words, they go to war. Same as humans do. Our servicemen have a range of problems associated with war. PTSD is very common. And nightmares too.

As far as that poor little chipmunk. I have mentioned a number of times on the forum about a time when I was a little kid and I killed a bird with my brand new Daisy BB gun. I will never get over that. I found the bird in the forest and half-assed buried it. Poor thing. A bird's eyes remain open. If I could feel what it was feeling, I don't know if I could have overcome it. Wait, I haven't overcome it. I just learned to live with it. I am not saying that everyone has to be a wuss like me. But humanity is not a bunch of psychopaths. I attribute that to intelligence. Intelligence and empathy should not be commodities that are cornered by humanity. And certainly should not be lacking in a highly intelligent empathic species.

Especially since treecats are so personally affected by death themselves. Death is very personal to them.

penny wrote:As far as a bonded pair, I would think that it would be impossible to dial it down, turn it off or disconnect from it in any form or fashion. After all, the definition of bonded comes into play. When a cat is bonded, the two minds become one, permanently. It reminds me of the Vulcan mind meld. During the "meld" the two minds are connected. Anything happens to the one happens to the other. Period.

No, they do not become one; only one is a telepath. If the cat dies, the person does not do so too; it only works in the other direction.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:As far as a bonded pair, I would think that it would be impossible to dial it down, turn it off or disconnect from it in any form or fashion. After all, the definition of bonded comes into play. When a cat is bonded, the two minds become one, permanently. It reminds me of the Vulcan mind meld. During the "meld" the two minds are connected. Anything happens to the one happens to the other. Period.

No, they do not become one; only one is a telepath. If the cat dies, the person does not do so too; it only works in the other direction.

Good point!, although I was responding in context to the Yawata Strike, which involved only cat/cat bonds.

But your point is correct. And interesting! At any rate, have we actually had an incident where just the cat of a cat/human bond died? I do not recall such an incident. There must have been at least one.

If not, we can only speculate whether the human will die, even if slowly over time, from loneliness and sadness.

We do know! That if Nimitz dies, Honor will die. If only inside. Calming her down will be impossible. Had Nimitz died at Beowulf, the Sol system would be in a shambles right now. If Nimitz dies, someone else will definitely die.

But seriously, in Honor's case, we can only speculate; hers being such an unprecedented bond where both are telepaths.

Good point tlb.

penny wrote:But seriously, in Honor's case, we can only speculate; hers being such an unprecedented bond where both are telepaths.

I believe that both are empaths, not telepaths. We know that the telepathic center in Nimitz was destroyed by the rifle butt after capture. They both have some minor ability to exchange pictures and so on, but do not seem to have full telepathic communication between each other.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:But seriously, in Honor's case, we can only speculate; hers being such an unprecedented bond where both are telepaths.

I believe that both are empaths, not telepaths. We know that the telepathic center in Nimitz was destroyed by the rifle butt after capture. They both have some minor ability to exchange pictures and so on, but do not seem to have full telepathic communication between each other.

Oh yeah! Thanks!

Fox2! wrote:

penny wrote:You might be right. But didn't the cats have a problem dialing their empathy down during the Yawata Strike? Which would have been a perfect time to do so.

The Yawata strike was a sudden, massive assault. The Treecats wouldn't have had time to "turn down" their empathic sense before it overwhelmed them.

Very poignant post. Once hit by the loss of a loved one, there is no ignoring something like that. Very good point.

Perhaps I am being a bit too presumptuous that the Cats have an easy time killing two-legs. That simply might be something the author has not had cause to address yet. Although if I had to bet on it, he totally missed this. Because, how can he not address it.

But perhaps — just perhaps — a cat has to retire and meditate after killing two-legs. Perhaps they purr themselves to calmness afterwards. If you have ever witnessed it, it reminds me of a pet who has succumbed to rabies. They will attack you if provoked, but they will show regret afterwards. "Hey, I wasn't myself."

But I can certainly understand that self-preservation takes over at the moment of a Cat's war cry.

At any rate, I even have a hard time assimilating that since it is an "enemy of the People" that that would be enough to assuage any guilt feelings. I am not so sure that guilt is the right word. Or even remorse. I am not sure that the correct word would even exist in our vocabulary. And I fear that mankind might not even be able to truly imagine the true scope of it.

In fact, if man was as empathic as the cats, I'd imagine there would be a lot of conscientious objectors when it comes to war. I can even see the act of drafting becoming a very cruel and heartless matter.

But perhaps war would become a thing of the past with total empathy guiding policy, politics and doctrine.