Generation vs Colony vs Cryo

tlb wrote:It's not lethal unless it get concentrated; several thousand people (?), each with some heavy metal adds up to an appreciable amount that some plants can extract. Safer to get rid of it before launching.

Yes, medical checkups should be done at the same time.

Wouldn't those people be a general cross-section of the population, therefore with average concentration of whatever ills the population may have? And if so, wouldn't this problem show up in any of the colonies in the Sol system already?

tlb wrote:It's not lethal unless it get concentrated; several thousand people (?), each with some heavy metal adds up to an appreciable amount that some plants can extract. Safer to get rid of it before launching.

Yes, medical checkups should be done at the same time.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Wouldn't those people be a general cross-section of the population, therefore with average concentration of whatever ills the population may have? And if so, wouldn't this problem show up in any of the colonies in the Sol system already?

Remember how Penny was concerned about sludge? The general population is not living in a completely recycled environment, because any heavy metals discovered in sewage treatment are captured and not allowed to reenter the general environment. This could be done in the colony ship waste treatment, but why wait until then?

There are a number of food plants that can act to concentrate metals, which is one reason why waste sludge can have a higher concentration of heavy metal than that of the general environment.

tlb wrote:Remember how Penny was concerned about sludge? The general population is not living in a completely recycled environment, because any heavy metals discovered in sewage treatment are captured and not allowed to reenter the general environment. This could be done in the colony ship waste treatment, but why wait until then?

There are a number of food plants that can act to concentrate metals, which is one reason why waste sludge can have a higher concentration of heavy metal than that of the general environment.

I'm not advocating that one should wait to treat something that can be easily dealt with. The question is just which method is easiest and safest.

And yet, if these methods of treatment are available, then they probably are routinely applied to space-based populations too. The only people who would need extra care are those who are first coming from the Earth or hadn't been off Earth in a long time.

We don't exactly know what the state of Earth will be around 300 to 500 PD. We know how it descended into the Final Wars, so it wasn't a nice place. We know there were a series of authoritarian governments in the 200s and 300s which led to Angelique Calvin launching her effort in the first place. But we also know that some of those governments were green ones, so if they stuck to their ideology beyond the demagoguery, they may have actually cleaned up the place a bit.

tlb wrote:Municipalities have trouble with sludge, because they have no control over what people are eating or otherwise disposing; that will not be true on a colony ship.

Anything organic in sludge is potential fertilizer for the hydroponic gardens. Anything inorganic needs to be separated and stored for reuse. The main sources of problems in sludge involves heavy metals. Most of these should have been eliminated in the building and loading of the ship. Any heavy metal not absolutely needed to sustain life, should have been purged from the ship before it launched. There may be radioactive materials that build due to bombardment of the ship, but these should be kept away from the living areas.

Note that the people also need to go through a purging process to eliminate any heavy metals that they previously ingested before they board the ship.

Actually, the best ways to sequester heavy metals and process wastes will be biological systems - probably genetically modified in the future, but some exist currently.

2 true stories:

The stepfather of a friend of mine had a tomato processing business (Katsup, canned tomatoes, stewed tomatoes, etc), and the waste from the plant included acidic waste pulps that were entering the sewer system and corroding the pipes. Working with agronomists, he built a catch pond with a specific sawgrass to filter the pulp (and feed the sawgrass). Worked great for 40 years until the EPA shut him down in the early 2000s for polluting a wetland (a wetland which he created specifically for the specific purpose of naturally filtering waste. Sadly, he was forced to close the plant, and sell the land (with the wetland) to Walmart.)

The other story - In college, I was a jr Project Manager on a project to build a new World Headquarters for the Fortune 500 corp I worked at. A politically expedient space on a former industrial site on river lowlands near the Downtown area was selected for the new campus, and construction proceeded. Several areas were found to be extremely polluted with 150 years of industrial waste, including heavy metals. Again, local agronomists were brought in and a stand of Birch trees were planted in the area with the greatest heavy metal content, and selected grasses and plants were introduced that were tolerant of the nature of the soil, and would slowly leach the contaminants from the soil. The plan was to cut down the trees after 30 years and incinerate the wood in a facility with heavy metal catchment hardware. Practically the entire team I was with has left that company or retired, So I have no idea if they still plan on removing the Birch trees.

I've heard of some municipalities creating lowlands for human waste processing (probably after sterilization), so if a generation ship is actually a massive hab, waste processing may include a biological aspect.

Sorry, I was writing this while TLB was posting.

We are talking about 400 years hence, perhaps we should consider 400 years past?
Consider how well our ancestors handled pollutants, then consider how well our decendants might do with 800 years better science?
Generally I'd expect that those on here are more scienticephiles, than scienticephobes?

Heavy metal toxicity is ... not exactly a problem for grains. UNLESS: You plant the wrong plants or eat the wrong PART of the plant.

Heavy metal toxicity can prevent plants from germinating due to PH levels, but that is easily solved by using bacteria/microryzal fungi via good ol' compost and compost tea.

Likewise there are some plants such as RICE which absorb high levels of Arsenic(in water) and sequester them in their seed(rice), but plants such as wheat, it doesn't matter WHAT it is grown in, other than radioactive carbon, none of the heavy we think of as toxic metals are in the seed or seed husk. Grayson is guaranteed to have zero rice dishes for instance.

Heavy metal toxicity will be MOST felt in leafy vegetables like Lettuce and NOT in grains. Potatoes in ground, most likely will have problems in their skins, but their interior??? It is 100% starch anyways so... I do not know and have never read about potatoes being used in high toxic soil. Woody stemmed plants on the other hand such as blueberries are effectively immune to ANY levels of heavy metal toxicity other than providing a poor environment to grow in the first place. Now as one other person brought up, woody stemmed LEAVES on the other hand are where heavy metals are often stored. He brought up switchblade grass I believe, but another CLASSIC example is bamboo and one major reason it is such hard wood. Several other woods known for sequestering Magnesium for instance. Bamboo sequesters high concentratsions of aluminum oxide? or is it silicon oxide in its wood/leaves? I think it is silicon oxide...(Fine some type of oxide ) Here, I'll bet native forests in Grayson will have nut/fruit bearing trees which should be human compatible.

Heavy metal toxicity dust on Grayson is a Q: I do not have an answer to. Though rain would negate it near the coast OPPOSITE of what is written in the stories. Arsenic does not EVAPORATE into rain out of the ocean!!! Nor is ANY OTHER toxic metals!!! Grayson's biggest cities should be a couple miles from the ocean NOT inland where there is no rain as written in the books. Only HIGH HIGH HIGH winds will drive salts inland a short ways(VERY short). Anyone know if Arsenic based salts even can be picked up and blown inland like K/Cl? Potassium/Chlorine based salts can but if you are a mere ~100m above surface of ocean on earth it =~ 0% in effect and why you see low lying islands often bare and warped trees up to about ~100m off surface of ocean and then normal forest past this on ocean shorelines. It could easily be possible that wind blown dust with HIGH levels of say, arsenic would be absorbed through leaves, but would it then be absorbed into the fruit? We do not have this problem here on earth and this has never truly been studied as a vector for problems. Salts from Chlorine/Potassium near ocean this is not true so... My guess is that it would not go into the fruit/seed, but may severely inhibit growth especially any plant without a waxy leaf. But once again any of the trees we use today with their edible leaves would most likely not be viable on Grayson.

So, in short, Grayson populace most likely would be eating a poor DIET nutritionally as leafy greens would be HIGHLY problematical whereas most seed based diets(oils, carbs, fats) would be just fine. So, ~--> Modern high processed Western Diets, with fake vitamins added, would be A-OK, but fish species?--> Nope. Crustaceans--> Hell NO(no shrimp, lobsters, or oysters). Most vegetables? HIGHLY problematical, but with a greenhouse? No problem as getting rid of the heavy metals is fairly straightforward with enough water and since they had fusion they should have started colony with infinite power to create the pure water and leach the heavy metals out of at least the surface, but oh my the work required as said water will also leach all the carbon out as well(tropical zone problems).

Grayson national dish: Cereal--> dry, no milk as cows eating leafy greens??? Good luck

Relax wrote:Heavy metal toxicity is ... not exactly a problem for grains. UNLESS: You plant the wrong plants or eat the wrong PART of the plant.

Heavy metal toxicity can prevent plants from germinating due to PH levels, but that is easily solved by using bacteria/microryzal fungi via good ol' compost and compost tea.

Likewise there are some plants such as RICE which absorb high levels of Arsenic(in water) and sequester them in their seed(rice), but plants such as wheat, it doesn't matter WHAT it is grown in, other than radioactive carbon, none of the heavy we think of as toxic metals are in the seed or seed husk. Grayson is guaranteed to have zero rice dishes for instance.

Heavy metal toxicity will be MOST felt in leafy vegetables like Lettuce and NOT in grains. Potatoes in ground, most likely will have problems in their skins, but their interior??? It is 100% starch anyways so... I do not know and have never read about potatoes being used in high toxic soil. Woody stemmed plants on the other hand such as blueberries are effectively immune to ANY levels of heavy metal toxicity other than providing a poor environment to grow in the first place. Now as one other person brought up, woody stemmed LEAVES on the other hand are where heavy metals are often stored. He brought up switchblade grass I believe, but another CLASSIC example is bamboo and one major reason it is such hard wood. Several other woods known for sequestering Magnesium for instance. Bamboo sequesters high concentratsions of aluminum oxide? or is it silicon oxide in its wood/leaves? I think it is silicon oxide...(Fine some type of oxide ) Here, I'll bet native forests in Grayson will have nut/fruit bearing trees which should be human compatible.

Heavy metal toxicity dust on Grayson is a Q: I do not have an answer to. Though rain would negate it near the coast OPPOSITE of what is written in the stories. Arsenic does not EVAPORATE into rain out of the ocean!!! Nor is ANY OTHER toxic metals!!! Grayson's biggest cities should be a couple miles from the ocean NOT inland where there is no rain as written in the books. Only HIGH HIGH HIGH winds will drive salts inland a short ways(VERY short). Anyone know if Arsenic based salts even can be picked up and blown inland like K/Cl? Potassium/Chlorine based salts can but if you are a mere ~100m above surface of ocean on earth it =~ 0% in effect and why you see low lying islands often bare and warped trees up to about ~100m off surface of ocean and then normal forest past this on ocean shorelines. It could easily be possible that wind blown dust with HIGH levels of say, arsenic would be absorbed through leaves, but would it then be absorbed into the fruit? We do not have this problem here on earth and this has never truly been studied as a vector for problems. Salts from Chlorine/Potassium near ocean this is not true so... My guess is that it would not go into the fruit/seed, but may severely inhibit growth especially any plant without a waxy leaf. But once again any of the trees we use today with their edible leaves would most likely not be viable on Grayson.

So, in short, Grayson populace most likely would be eating a poor DIET nutritionally as leafy greens would be HIGHLY problematical whereas most seed based diets(oils, carbs, fats) would be just fine. So, ~--> Modern high processed Western Diets, with fake vitamins added, would be A-OK, but fish species?--> Nope. Crustaceans--> Hell NO(no shrimp, lobsters, or oysters). Most vegetables? HIGHLY problematical, but with a greenhouse? No problem as getting rid of the heavy metals is fairly straightforward with enough water and since they had fusion they should have started colony with infinite power to create the pure water and leach the heavy metals out of at least the surface, but oh my the work required as said water will also leach all the carbon out as well(tropical zone problems).

Grayson national dish: Cereal--> dry, no milk as cows eating leafy greens??? Good luck

Interesting post. Nice!

A couple of things. I don't know what kind of weather patterns Grayson has, but hurricanes can pick up a lot of water off of the ocean and carry it miles away. Water spouts (tornados that form over water) do the same. There is also the problem of flooding. So, I think perhaps Grayson was right to locate their cities inland away from the ocean.

Plus, you probably don't want to be so close to the ocean that you might have problems with miscreants wanting to visit the awe of mother nature.

penny wrote:Plus, you probably don't want to be so close to the ocean that you might have problems with miscreants wanting to visit the awe of mother nature.

Miscreants wanting to visit a toxic ocean would seem to be a self-limiting problem (very negative feedback).

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Plus, you probably don't want to be so close to the ocean that you might have problems with miscreants wanting to visit the awe of mother nature.

Miscreants wanting to visit a toxic ocean would seem to be a self-limiting problem (very negative feedback).

One would think so, for certain. And I am sure Grayson had laws against it. But the definition for miscreant is: a person who behaves badly or in a way that breaks the law.

Don't you remember how you lived on the edge when you were a kid?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:If you absorbed the link you know that sludge contains some very nasty stuff. We have the same problem as we do with radioactive waste. Disposal. Treating sludge is a time consuming process (see link). That is why acceptable legal limits are rarely achieved. After treatment, what do we do with the sludge? Some places utilize it as fertilizer.

Some municipalities dump it into the ocean. Some cities dump it in landfills. Many cities are banning its use as fertilizer because the sludge is found to still have high levels of heavy metals, etc., then the plants absorb it and then we eat the food. Representing a dangerous link in the circle of life. Dumping it in the ocean has its own problem of contaminating the ocean and the fish. Dumping in landfills damages the soil. So, aboard a generation ship, why go through all of the trouble to filter wastewater sludge when it can simply be dumped into space. An option that is not available on planet. And the traditional methods of disposal are not an option aboard the ship. If it is being dumped into space, that nullifies the notion of a closed system. And as you can see, at the end of the day, the loss of the sludge negates the idea of the conservation of mass.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Using it as fertiliser is recycling, just with a longer cycle.

Separating heavy metals is easy. Just expensive.

Starships will need to be designed for the long haul. If you need to remove the heavy metals in treating your waste, then you will need to have the heavy metal separation equipment, however expensive they are, if your voyage is above a certain time threshold.

Because you need that material. Dumping it into space is a waste and possibly even a navigational hazard for other ships coming after you. Worse: it will go with you to your destination system: we're talking about ships moving at half light or better. The ship will decelerate to make orbit... the waste will not.

You could impart a sideways velocity, but you're not going to expend the energy necessary for it to have sufficient separation to miss the system entirely. The course is still too coarse at the beginning to know where it's going to hit.

No, the only option is that you carry it with you all the way to the destination, with all the ills of hauling trash entail.

Municipalities have trouble with sludge, because they have no control over what people are eating or otherwise disposing; that will not be true on a colony ship.

Anything organic in sludge is potential fertilizer for the hydroponic gardens. Anything inorganic needs to be separated and stored for reuse. The main sources of problems in sludge involves heavy metals. Most of these should have been eliminated in the building and loading of the ship. Any heavy metal not absolutely needed to sustain life, should have been purged from the ship before it launched. There may be radioactive materials that build due to bombardment of the ship, but these should be kept away from the living areas.

Note that the people also need to go through a purging process to eliminate any heavy metals that they previously ingested before they board the ship.

Interesting. You might be right that more control over products would be a necessity. I just don't see how they can pull it off. Heavy metals come from flushing a slew of beauty care products, a slew of cleaning products, dry cleaning waste, hospital waste and more down the drain. I just don't see how one can police what someone flushes.