Generation vs Colony vs Cryo

tlb wrote:I doubt that any colony ship ever allowed for the complete duplication of a ship. For one thing, why would your assumed section of population that do not want to live on the ground decide to fly away? Why not continue to live in an orbital and remain in contact with their fellow colonists? If I remember correctly, Calvin's Hope remained intact.

For another, any manufacturing ability on the original ship would have been designed to build things for life on the planet. Since space is limited, I consider it unlikely there is the capacity for anything too large.

That's also an assumption that they would decide to stay.

The point is that cultural drift can happen and living between the stars may be what those people want. It may not be possible to satisfy them once you arrive, if you do need to strip the ship down to make orbital nodes and kick-start the local industry. You don't want a civil strife to happen aboard your only ship because some people want to dismantle it and some want to continue the journey onwards (maybe forever). The people who arrive are not the people who originally signed up for the expedition.

I am all in agreement this is what RFC designed for the Honorverse. I am making the argument that this is not how it should be done, for a properly planned expedition.

tlb wrote:I doubt that any colony ship ever allowed for the complete duplication of a ship. For one thing, why would your assumed section of population that do not want to live on the ground decide to fly away? Why not continue to live in an orbital and remain in contact with their fellow colonists? If I remember correctly, Calvin's Hope remained intact.

For another, any manufacturing ability on the original ship would have been designed to build things for life on the planet. Since space is limited, I consider it unlikely there is the capacity for anything too large.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's also an assumption that they would decide to stay.

The point is that cultural drift can happen and living between the stars may be what those people want. It may not be possible to satisfy them once you arrive, if you do need to strip the ship down to make orbital nodes and kick-start the local industry. You don't want a civil strife to happen aboard your only ship because some people want to dismantle it and some want to continue the journey onwards (maybe forever). The people who arrive are not the people who originally signed up for the expedition.

I am all in agreement this is what RFC designed for the Honorverse. I am making the argument that this is not how it should be done, for a properly planned expedition.

This occurs in a minor subplot in David Drakes's The Sea Without a Shore, where there is a major schism between parties in a new colony and one group leaves in the colony ship to find a different world. However I find it difficult to believe that this contingency can be planned ahead.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:I doubt that any colony ship ever allowed for the complete duplication of a ship. For one thing, why would your assumed section of population that do not want to live on the ground decide to fly away? Why not continue to live in an orbital and remain in contact with their fellow colonists? If I remember correctly, Calvin's Hope remained intact.

For another, any manufacturing ability on the original ship would have been designed to build things for life on the planet. Since space is limited, I consider it unlikely there is the capacity for anything too large.

That's also an assumption that they would decide to stay.

The point is that cultural drift can happen and living between the stars may be what those people want. It may not be possible to satisfy them once you arrive, if you do need to strip the ship down to make orbital nodes and kick-start the local industry. You don't want a civil strife to happen aboard your only ship because some people want to dismantle it and some want to continue the journey onwards (maybe forever). The people who arrive are not the people who originally signed up for the expedition.

I am all in agreement this is what RFC designed for the Honorverse. I am making the argument that this is not how it should be done, for a properly planned expedition.

I never considered anybody wanting to remain onboard. Even if born on the ship I would imagine history would be taught and people would long for the smell of fresh air, fresh water and a view of the open sky. And miles and miles of land in which to roam.

But again I think politics would come into play, and the original mission parameters would have to be adhered to. Why would anyone want to relegate themselves to essentially becoming a vagabond roaming around in space?

At any rate, the colonists need the ship and its tech to survive. In the other thread we argue about mining for water and minerals in space. How exactly will that be accomplished without the essential tools aboard ship? Shuttles are not mining ships, and I would not think they are capable of being transformed into mining ships. Actually, I am not sure exactly how mining is supposed to be carried out without specialized mining ships. But there is no way any selfish settlers can change the original mission parameters of the ship. There is no permanent future that can be made aboard a generation ship. Regardless of how good the technicians and engineers, etc., are, the ship will have a limited shelf life.

Politics will rule. I don't think prolong was available during the time of the first generation ship??? And making the kind of decision to remain aboard ship wandering aimlessly in space is simply selfish. And it boarders on negligence when the children are considered; keeping them from the technology, science and medicine of the modern world. Fear of the unknown is not a reason to trash a mission.

penny wrote:I don't think prolong was available during the time of the first generation ship???

Definitely not. Prolong was so recently invented that there are still plenty of people living who were adults before that invention - as life spans had been improving even without it and it was invented less than a century before the 'present day' Honorverse.

Prolong invented in 1829 PD (and took a while to become widespread), and so it is only 72 years old when our story begins with OBS, and still only 94 years old "today".

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Oh, and the idea that a generation ship might show up at its destination and colonists collectively decide they don't want to deal with that whole messy planet thing is hardly a new one in science fiction. (Remember, nobody aboard would ever have set foot on a planet; and likely the last person who had is themselves well beyond living memory)

tlb wrote:This occurs in a minor subplot in David Drakes's The Sea Without a Shore, where there is a major schism between parties in a new colony and one group leaves in the colony ship to find a different world. However I find it difficult to believe that this contingency can be planned ahead.

I think it can. The crux is that it doesn't have to be immediate: I think everyone, whether they want to stay or leave, would find a change of scenery interesting. So staying a while in the system before journeying on would be welcome. Especially so if the stay is able to refurbish, refit and even improve the ship those who will leave will be aboard.

That may be 10, 15 or even 20 years.

penny wrote:I never considered anybody wanting to remain onboard. Even if born on the ship I would imagine history would be taught and people would long for the smell of fresh air, fresh water and a view of the open sky. And miles and miles of land in which to roam.

And why would you long for something you've never known and no one in living memory has met someone who has known that? Do you long for sabre-toothed tiger meat? Roman gladiator spectacles? Or the adrenaline thrill of successfully hunting to save your tribe/clan with bare spears?

I'm not talking about analogues or recreations, because those would be available aboard the ship too. My point is that you can't long for something you've never experienced. You may build up expectations, but that can be even worse if the old tales talk about what it should be on the planet, but the actual experience disappoints.

But again I think politics would come into play, and the original mission parameters would have to be adhered to. Why would anyone want to relegate themselves to essentially becoming a vagabond roaming around in space?

Because why not? Again, that's what they've done for ages, so why not continue doing so, exploring, seeking out new life, and boldly going where no one has ever gone before? Their goal may be simply to start more colonies, seeing their destiny as spreading humanity over the entire Galaxy (something we should be able to do within a million years)?

I agree the politics will come into play. And that's a problem, not the solution. It might be what ends up having the rule, but that doesn't solve the strife.

At any rate, the colonists need the ship and its tech to survive. In the other thread we argue about mining for water and minerals in space. How exactly will that be accomplished without the essential tools aboard ship? Shuttles are not mining ships, and I would not think they are capable of being transformed into mining ships. Actually, I am not sure exactly how mining is supposed to be carried out without specialized mining ships. But there is no way any selfish settlers can change the original mission parameters of the ship. There is no permanent future that can be made aboard a generation ship. Regardless of how good the technicians and engineers, etc., are, the ship will have a limited shelf life.

See above about some time in the system being acceptable for all parties, even if it's a decade-long stay.

If you need mining ships when you arrive, then you must either have mining ships when you arrive or have the tools to make them out of resources you shall have at hand when you arrive. Mining ships are no different than any other tool a colony may need to bootstrap itself and kickstart its industry.

The ship's life is limited only by your maintenance and additions to it. If you remove a plank from a wooden, sail ship and replace it, it's still the same ship. You can remove every plank and every rivet from it, one at a time, and rebuild the ship entirely, and it's still the same ship. I will readily agree you can't do this in the interstellar void, so even the faction that wants to journey forever would have to agree they need to make stops to gather materials and improve the ship, expand it, maybe even duplicate it. At that point, they can leave a colony behind too, for those who've had enough of shipgoing life.

So, for them, the stopping to found a colony is a "pit stop," not the destination. It also allows for decreasing the population aboard, so it can regrow over the next centuries too. And, quite importantly, choosing a destination.

Politics will rule. I don't think prolong was available during the time of the first generation ship??? And making the kind of decision to remain aboard ship wandering aimlessly in space is simply selfish. And it boarders on negligence when the children are considered; keeping them from the technology, science and medicine of the modern world. Fear of the unknown is not a reason to trash a mission.

And boarding the ship in the first place wasn't? Those who left Earth aren't the ones who will have to create a colony on a wild system. It's their children's children's children's... children. Those who boarded the ship had a brand, new ship; if the ship is nearing the end of its useful life when it's supposed to arrive, then the descendants are doing a lot of maintenance now, with an old ship. Shouldn't you call this negligent too?

Why would journeying onwards keep anyone from medicine, science, and technology, at all, let alone less than the colony itself compared to the Sol system? High-powered interstellar comm lasers are not a thing in the HV (at least, not any more), but it should be possible to have one. Calvin's Hope began its launch countdown the day the Beowulf expedition reported a successful arrival, so there were interstellar communications in the first place. Beaming information to a ship that is much closer than the colony should be completely doable. They should be receiving all the public domain updates on science, technology, and medicine, the same as the colonies themselves.

I'm not talking about trashing the mission. I am talking about colonies starting daughter colonies of their own... only on an expedited schedule, and even then, by not much.

How about a cryogenic FTL ship? To boldly go much further than anyone else, and establish a new civilisation. Using frozen ova and sperm of humans and many other species, along with uterine replicators for different species.
What the onion should have done all along.

Daryl wrote:How about a cryogenic FTL ship? To boldly go much further than anyone else, and establish a new civilisation. Using frozen ova and sperm of humans and many other species, along with uterine replicators for different species.
What the onion should have done all along.

Whatta thought!

You may have singlehandedly figured out the contingency plan for the ultimate Houdini. Are survey crews still operating in the galaxy? Is the MAlign still making surveys disappear? The MAlign can sponsor their own survey ships now.

Daryl wrote:How about a cryogenic FTL ship? To boldly go much further than anyone else, and establish a new civilisation. Using frozen ova and sperm of humans and many other species, along with uterine replicators for different species.
What the onion should have done all along.

You could - though when they set up Galton you'll note that they didn't use a single specialized colony ship. They used a bunch of regular freighters -- which create the traffic trail that eventually let the Grand Alliance to that system.

But sure, the technology to build cryo ships should still exist. A colony ship would be far too large for a compensator to handle -- but for this kind of specialized use limiting its acceleration to what grav plates can sink isn't a big deal. (Heck limited it to 1 g acceleration isn't a big deal).

Though the downside is that now your scout ships are no faster than your colony ship can be (sure you could artificially limit it to, say, the Delta bands -- but it'd be a false economy). So if you're sending it hundred of years through hyper then you're making a leap into the unknown even more-so than the early STL generation ship settlers were. Since you're traveling thousands of time further that they were your remote surveys will be corresponding less informative -- and it's equally impractical to send scouts ahead to perform on-site surveys.



But the main reason the MAlign is unlikely to have done this is that they're not actually trying to disappear over the horizon never to be seen again. They're trying to stay close enough that they can continue to try to manipulate the rest of humanity according to their grand plan; while still remaining hidden enough to avoid destruction. Avoiding destruction at the expense of giving up on their grand plan is just another form of defeat (and a self-inflicted one at that; making it doubly hard for them to accept)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I never considered anybody wanting to remain onboard. Even if born on the ship I would imagine history would be taught and people would long for the smell of fresh air, fresh water and a view of the open sky. And miles and miles of land in which to roam.

And why would you long for something you've never known and no one in living memory has met someone who has known that? Do you long for sabre-toothed tiger meat? Roman gladiator spectacles? Or the adrenaline thrill of successfully hunting to save your tribe/clan with bare spears?

I long for a vacation to see the Great Wall of China. It is on my bucket list. I once longed to see Niagara Falls from both sides of the Falls. That is now off my bucket list. The Grand Canyon. Amsterdam's Red Light District. The Black Forest. And the many of the many castles around the globe have all been conquered by the inner curiosity that will always be a part of mankind.

I imagine there are huge gathering areas aboard ship to watch television both as entertainment, and as a reminder of the journey, the mission, and from whence and why they came. I have always imagined versions of the old drive-in movie theaters aboard generation ships; for those of us who are old enough to have experienced them. And where has the average man gotten ideas of where he would love to vacation? From television.

I think you take for granted the living conditions aboard ship. On TV, the kids will see bicycles. Snow sleds. Snow! Rain! Running until your heart is content. Dirt! Sandboxes! Baseball. Football. Making out with girls! Etc.

The adults will see other adults owning their own homes. Making love without having to worry about unwanted pregnancies. Making love in a bed in a home where there is total privacy where one can run around naked; and not having to steal a quickie in the bowels of a stinky ship because you have to. Not want to. That surely must be romantic.

BTW, what form of birth control will be practiced? Where will medicines come from aboard a generation ship? Adults and children alike will see people in movies wanting to get out of small towns. Well, you can't get any smaller than the town aboard a generation ship.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I'm not talking about analogues or recreations, because those would be available aboard the ship too. My point is that you can't long for something you've never experienced. You may build up expectations, but that can be even worse if the old tales talk about what it should be on the planet, but the actual experience disappoints.

I disagree with that. Though I do understand your sentiment. That attitude commonly hails from people who have never ventured outside of their own city, let alone their own state or country; and who have never had the urge to. But the average person I think would readily disagree. I guess what I am trying to say is that the human experience is "the grass is always greener on the other side." Unless you live where the grass is already green. There is no grass aboard ship. Well, none to write home about anyway. I personally imagine that the living conditions on a generation ship is worse than the worse small town. One does not have to have been anywhere else to want to leave that small town in the rear view mirror.

I would love to see outer space but I do not think I will be able to afford putting it on my bucket list. I imagine the reverse will be true for people on a generation ship wanting to see a planet.

Again, I do understand your sentiment. Some people would love to see New York City, but wouldn't want to live there. I just can not personally imagine anyone aboard ship would feel that way about living life on a planet. After watching TV in the media room? Nah!

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:But again I think politics would come into play, and the original mission parameters would have to be adhered to. Why would anyone want to relegate themselves to essentially becoming a vagabond roaming around in space?

Because why not? Again, that's what they've done for ages, so why not continue doing so, exploring, seeking out new life, and boldly going where no one has ever gone before? Their goal may be simply to start more colonies, seeing their destiny as spreading humanity over the entire Galaxy (something we should be able to do within a million years)?

I agree the politics will come into play. And that's a problem, not the solution. It might be what ends up having the rule, but that doesn't solve the strife.

I just do not see aimlessly wandering the heavens making no contribution to mankind and only meeting the same people in your small town as living. Your mileage may vary. They have been there and done that. Boldly going where no man has gone before for the people aboard a generation ship translates to finally seeing a planet.

The traditional "I gotta get out of this small town!" becomes "I gotta get the hell off this ship!" Is the female to male ratio conducive to finding a romantic partner for either child or adult? You cannot afford to lose a friend in this "town." Will the population grow faster than incarcerations and death?

Can you imagine crime aboard? Rape, theft, murder? Jails? How long do you incarcerate them? If you ever free them they will live in your "town," forever.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:At any rate, the colonists need the ship and its tech to survive. In the other thread we argue about mining for water and minerals in space. How exactly will that be accomplished without the essential tools aboard ship? Shuttles are not mining ships, and I would not think they are capable of being transformed into mining ships. Actually, I am not sure exactly how mining is supposed to be carried out without specialized mining ships. But there is no way any selfish settlers can change the original mission parameters of the ship. There is no permanent future that can be made aboard a generation ship. Regardless of how good the technicians and engineers, etc., are, the ship will have a limited shelf life.

See above about some time in the system being acceptable for all parties, even if it's a decade-long stay.

If you need mining ships when you arrive, then you must either have mining ships when you arrive or have the tools to make them out of resources you shall have at hand when you arrive. Mining ships are no different than any other tool a colony may need to bootstrap itself and kickstart its industry.

The ship's life is limited only by your maintenance and additions to it. If you remove a plank from a wooden, sail ship and replace it, it's still the same ship. You can remove every plank and every rivet from it, one at a time, and rebuild the ship entirely, and it's still the same ship. I will readily agree you can't do this in the interstellar void, so even the faction that wants to journey forever would have to agree they need to make stops to gather materials and improve the ship, expand it, maybe even duplicate it. At that point, they can leave a colony behind too, for those who've had enough of shipgoing life.

So, for them, the stopping to found a colony is a "pit stop," not the destination. It also allows for decreasing the population aboard, so it can regrow over the next centuries too. And, quite importantly, choosing a destination.

What a hell of a way of life for all concerned. There is already a limited amount of suitors aboard. Adults and children need romance. Making a pit stop and decreasing the population aboard the ship, ripping children from their friends and girlfriends and doing the same for the adults will make people detest that ship for certain. At least when this happens on the planet you will meet new people, eventually. Who will stay aboard? Who will go groundside? Adults? Children? Families only? Sounds cruel in real life.

And do remember that minimum population needed to properly seed a planet.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Politics will rule. I don't think prolong was available during the time of the first generation ship??? And making the kind of decision to remain aboard ship wandering aimlessly in space is simply selfish. And it boarders on negligence when the children are considered; keeping them from the technology, science and medicine of the modern world. Fear of the unknown is not a reason to trash a mission.

And boarding the ship in the first place wasn't? Those who left Earth aren't the ones who will have to create a colony on a wild system. It's their children's children's children's... children. Those who boarded the ship had a brand, new ship; if the ship is nearing the end of its useful life when it's supposed to arrive, then the descendants are doing a lot of maintenance now, with an old ship. Shouldn't you call this negligent too?

Why would journeying onwards keep anyone from medicine, science, and technology, at all, let alone less than the colony itself compared to the Sol system? High-powered interstellar comm lasers are not a thing in the HV (at least, not any more), but it should be possible to have one. Calvin's Hope began its launch countdown the day the Beowulf expedition reported a successful arrival, so there were interstellar communications in the first place. Beaming information to a ship that is much closer than the colony should be completely doable. They should be receiving all the public domain updates on science, technology, and medicine, the same as the colonies themselves.

I'm not talking about trashing the mission. I am talking about colonies starting daughter colonies of their own... only on an expedited schedule, and even then, by not much.

Was boarding the ship in the first place negligent? Unfair question isn't it? The original mission was made to escape the horrors of the Final Wars. No?

Medicine and the medical establishment itself will be limited aboard a generation ship. Heck, how many people even want to go into the medical field per thousand people. Are you assuming forced careers? Forced relationships? The politics aboard ship is already beginning to sound like a third world communist country. Life aboard a generation ship probably isn't all that different from living in North Korea from the sounds of it.

How will people aboard a generation ship know about the advances of medicine centuries down the road? Even a year down the road? If they can receive communication from the outside world, why would that communication contain trade secrets from the medical establishment? It might tell of prolong, but that will certainly make people aboard want to make it to a planet in hopes of seeing the actual Fountain of Youth by being contacted by people who have come in peace bearing gifts like the Manticorans who visited Grayson.

When the generation ships left the system some 600 years prior, nobody could have possibly known what advances would be made by the journey's end. So how could they have planned for it?

Being aboard a generation ship will not be like living behind iron curtains like Russia and North Korea where information about life "outside the country" is controlled, polluted, tainted and misrepresented.


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