How advance are the Alpha lines?

Brigade XO wrote:So the Detweiler clones are mistaken about honor being a ALPHA line.......or just perhaps the accumulation of various mods including Meydrahal and other others plus normal mutations families which contributed to both Allison and Alberts genetic makeup have brought Honor up to a lever (and we don't know what the LRPB uses as criteria) of an Alpha.

Of course that may mean that they did acquire enough samples of Honor's genetics though spies etc to be able to make that determination. Or- this is the Alignment- they are trying to take credit for Honor being a "lost line" to take credit for her being so good and beating them and messing up their plans.
No way to actually tell.....big smile.

I don't think they got samples either. I think they may simply be reacting to the 5-century-old plan that said that Harringtons should have been an Alpha line, and extrapolating.

It's like saying that if Henry VIII had stayed married to Catherine, England would still be majority Catholic. That ignores all other events that have happened since, especially in the 16th century, that could have still caused a break with the Papacy. There's no way to be sure how history would have developed differently and how the plans might have changed otherwise.

Alternative hypothesis is that one of Richard's or Marjorie's relatives did remain a Alpha line. He or she may have been an only child (Meyerdahl being a fully-populated planet may have had low birthrates and may have had incentives to keep population growth in check), but it's highly unlikely he/she was child of only child, who was an only-child and so forth. Therefore, if there were relatives that remained part of the MAlign and became Alpha, though probably with a different surname, that may be why the Detweilers thought that Honor should have been one of them.

Of course, it wouldn't have been Honor in the first place. By definition, if the Harringtons had been Alpha lines, they'd have had genetic tinkering and would have lacked Sphinx genes that would have caused them to diverge from the Sphinx Harringtons that did exist. Moreover, there's no way an 1850s Alpha would have gone to Beowulf to study, and rescue a Benton-Ramirez y Chou from kidnapping, so there definitely wouldn't be an Honor.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:So the Detweiler clones are mistaken about honor being a ALPHA line.......or just perhaps the accumulation of various mods including Meydrahal and other others plus normal mutations families which contributed to both Allison and Alberts genetic makeup have brought Honor up to a lever (and we don't know what the LRPB uses as criteria) of an Alpha.

Of course that may mean that they did acquire enough samples of Honor's genetics though spies etc to be able to make that determination. Or- this is the Alignment- they are trying to take credit for Honor being a "lost line" to take credit for her being so good and beating them and messing up their plans.
No way to actually tell.....big smile.

I don't think they got samples either. I think they may simply be reacting to the 5-century-old plan that said that Harringtons should have been an Alpha line, and extrapolating.

It's like saying that if Henry VIII had stayed married to Catherine, England would still be majority Catholic. That ignores all other events that have happened since, especially in the 16th century, that could have still caused a break with the Papacy. There's no way to be sure how history would have developed differently and how the plans might have changed otherwise.

Alternative hypothesis is that one of Richard's or Marjorie's relatives did remain a Alpha line. He or she may have been an only child (Meyerdahl being a fully-populated planet may have had low birthrates and may have had incentives to keep population growth in check), but it's highly unlikely he/she was child of only child, who was an only-child and so forth. Therefore, if there were relatives that remained part of the MAlign and became Alpha, though probably with a different surname, that may be why the Detweilers thought that Honor should have been one of them.

Of course, it wouldn't have been Honor in the first place. By definition, if the Harringtons had been Alpha lines, they'd have had genetic tinkering and would have lacked Sphinx genes that would have caused them to diverge from the Sphinx Harringtons that did exist. Moreover, there's no way an 1850s Alpha would have gone to Beowulf to study, and rescue a Benton-Ramirez y Chou from kidnapping, so there definitely wouldn't be an Honor.

I take it you have not read the spoilers on the upcoming YA Stephanie Harrington books.

It's been posted on here before, and being in an upcoming book, it is to be considered a spoiler, so i will let everyone do their own research if so inclined.

But needless to say, The Harrington Alpha line is going to be a main plot point of the Stephanie Harrington books going forward.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:So the Detweiler clones are mistaken about honor being a ALPHA line.......or just perhaps the accumulation of various mods including Meydrahal and other others plus normal mutations families which contributed to both Allison and Alberts genetic makeup have brought Honor up to a lever (and we don't know what the LRPB uses as criteria) of an Alpha.

Of course that may mean that they did acquire enough samples of Honor's genetics though spies etc to be able to make that determination. Or- this is the Alignment- they are trying to take credit for Honor being a "lost line" to take credit for her being so good and beating them and messing up their plans.
No way to actually tell.....big smile.

I don't think they got samples either. I think they may simply be reacting to the 5-century-old plan that said that Harringtons should have been an Alpha line, and extrapolating.

It's like saying that if Henry VIII had stayed married to Catherine, England would still be majority Catholic. That ignores all other events that have happened since, especially in the 16th century, that could have still caused a break with the Papacy. There's no way to be sure how history would have developed differently and how the plans might have changed otherwise.

Alternative hypothesis is that one of Richard's or Marjorie's relatives did remain a Alpha line. He or she may have been an only child (Meyerdahl being a fully-populated planet may have had low birthrates and may have had incentives to keep population growth in check), but it's highly unlikely he/she was child of only child, who was an only-child and so forth. Therefore, if there were relatives that remained part of the MAlign and became Alpha, though probably with a different surname, that may be why the Detweilers thought that Honor should have been one of them.

Of course, it wouldn't have been Honor in the first place. By definition, if the Harringtons had been Alpha lines, they'd have had genetic tinkering and would have lacked Sphinx genes that would have caused them to diverge from the Sphinx Harringtons that did exist. Moreover, there's no way an 1850s Alpha would have gone to Beowulf to study, and rescue a Benton-Ramirez y Chou from kidnapping, so there definitely wouldn't be an Honor.

Theemile wrote:I take it you have not read the spoilers on the upcoming YA Stephanie Harrington books.

It's been posted on here before, and being in an upcoming book, it is to be considered a spoiler, so i will let everyone do their own research if so inclined.

But needless to say, The Harrington Alpha line is going to be a main plot point of the Stephanie Harrington books going forward.

Thanks for the info Theemile. As I stated upstream, the MA can easily sell me on the notion of Honor being an Alpha because the proof is in the pudding. Honor is certainly their equal or better. So, if Honor is not an Alpha, then the MA wasted a lot of research and effort reinventing the wheel. And the author would have wasted storyline on the MA and their research.

Would someone refresh my memory please? Are Alphas only allowed to procreate with other Alphas? And shouldn't the MA expect the result of an Alpha + Alpha union to also be an Alpha? Which over time there will be lots of markedly above average offspring? Offspring who will now have the benefit of traditional nurturing? Even the breast fed bonding and nurturing that occurs with their mothers? Finally supplying Alphas with the missing element of intangibles?

Procreation within the MA is based on the plans of the Long Range Planning Board. They decide which traits to breed or try to tinker into the various genetic family lines. They also decide who is going to be paired up as couples.

Not every effort is successful, and not every off spring carries all of the desired genetic traits. Sometimes the traits counter each other and you get complications that lead to the effort being dropped and new avenues pursued.

Fireflair wrote:Procreation within the MA is based on the plans of the Long Range Planning Board. They decide which traits to breed or try to tinker into the various genetic family lines. They also decide who is going to be paired up as couples.

That's certainly true for the MAlign folks that had been on Mesa and then later Darius.

I'm not so sure about any on Galton -- with the LRPB presumably solidly based at Darius I'd think the level of communication it'd take to remotely coordinate family planning for the advanced lines of an entire planet might involve far too much communication between Galton and Darius; communication that the MAlign minimized to help sell the idea that Galton was the hidden top (should it become necessary to expend them to hide Darius). Though I suppose they might have set up a mirror LRDB on Galton, without any awareness of Darius, and left it to do its own thing.

And then the hidden Alphas where they were deep cover within various planetary governments and society would be even trickier for the LRDB to manage (assuming their members were even cleared to know those multi-generational sleeper agent families even existed). Similar communication security issues as with Galton, with the added complication that family members are only brought into the Onion once mature and evaluated as being eager and able to keep the secret and continue the mission. Oh, and to worm their way into the societies the hidden Alpha probably have to play marriage market games to gain power by establishing ties (over the centuries) with other powerful families. So even if the LRDB was able to express their wishes, the needs of the sleeper agent mission might dictate other breeding outcomes.

(And we already know there are lost Alphas where the LRPB definitely has no say over their procreation)

penny wrote:Would someone refresh my memory please? Are Alphas only allowed to procreate with other Alphas? And shouldn't the MA expect the result of an Alpha + Alpha union to also be an Alpha? Which over time there will be lots of markedly above average offspring? Offspring who will now have the benefit of traditional nurturing? Even the breast fed bonding and nurturing that occurs with their mothers? Finally supplying Alphas with the missing element of intangibles?

I don't thing anyone actually said what the Alpha's are allowed and not allowed to do as far as procreation. Clearly some children (the "sons" of Albrect) are "handed over" to the parents who have a yet undetermined share in their upbringing and training. Others are assigned like the theorist who suffered a breakdown because the foster daughter (yet another attempt at a specific talent that failed) was deemed a failed experiment and Culled as a wast of time.

Those people who may (or may not) be Alphas like the McBrides MAY have started their children the old fashioned way but they were probably then screened at a very early stage and any obvious genetic defects corrected. No mention if any modificatons were made to either McBride brother or to their siblings.

Certainly any Alpha line sent out into the wild (away from 1st Mesa and now Darius) probably isn't going to get much modification of any offspring unless the Alignment provides it (probably pre conception) other than what might be normal early screening if the system they are in has it available.

It's got to be interesting to KNOW that who you are is the result of centuries of deliberate tinkering with genealogy and splicing in and out various things to experiment on you, your predecessors and who knows how many collections of cells that didn't get far enough to be a viable fetus, let alone how many of potential relatives in your past didn't make some goal of criteria in "making it" as a successful experiment and were culled.

Nobody has written anything down so it's your best imagination on how likely an Alpha is going to have an unsupervised conception and have it carried to term anywhere near where the LRPB or some set of researchers have access to them.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Fireflair wrote:Procreation within the MA is based on the plans of the Long Range Planning Board. They decide which traits to breed or try to tinker into the various genetic family lines. They also decide who is going to be paired up as couples.

That's certainly true for the MAlign folks that had been on Mesa and then later Darius.

I'm not so sure about any on Galton -- with the LRPB presumably solidly based at Darius I'd think the level of communication it'd take to remotely coordinate family planning for the advanced lines of an entire planet might involve far too much communication between Galton and Darius; communication that the MAlign minimized to help sell the idea that Galton was the hidden top (should it become necessary to expend them to hide Darius). Though I suppose they might have set up a mirror LRDB on Galton, without any awareness of Darius, and left it to do its own thing.

And then the hidden Alphas where they were deep cover within various planetary governments and society would be even trickier for the LRDB to manage (assuming their members were even cleared to know those multi-generational sleeper agent families even existed). Similar communication security issues as with Galton, with the added complication that family members are only brought into the Onion once mature and evaluated as being eager and able to keep the secret and continue the mission. Oh, and to worm their way into the societies the hidden Alpha probably have to play marriage market games to gain power by establishing ties (over the centuries) with other powerful families. So even if the LRDB was able to express their wishes, the needs of the sleeper agent mission might dictate other breeding outcomes.

(And we already know there are lost Alphas where the LRPB definitely has no say over their procreation)

LRDB? Interesting.

Anyhow, thanks for the refresher Fireflair. I did not realize that pairing couples was done across the board. I thought it was done on an occasional basis if it appeared that two couples would be compatible genetically where a union would intensify or bring out a certain genetic trait. How the MA can keep people from naturally falling in love and choosing their own mate is beyond me.

But I don't understand why that would be needed. Unless all Alphas do not share the same genetic features. I suppose some features in some Alphas might not have been successful, making those Alphas less of a candidate for pairing to achieve certain results. Like Bardasano. Which begs the question of whether Bardasano will be allowed to procreate. I think I recall a passage that she will be part of a union with a Detweiler or something??? Or taken into the inner Onion? Wow, what a mess of tangled webs they weave.

But! If Honor really is an Alpha. And since the MA definitely knows that Honor did not marry an Alpha. If Raoul's talents ever surface, the MA should realize that at this point they should simply let nature take its course. At any rate, the MA would probably love to get their hands on Raoul. For the sake of science.

An aside: I see no reason the MA should not allow Alphas to fall in love and marry who they want. And continue to take genetic code from any two Alphas and make a baby themselves. That would yield offspring by both natural and unnatural selection thus increasing the chances of success.

penny wrote:An aside: I see no reason the MA should not allow Alphas to fall in love and marry who they want. And continue to take genetic code from any two Alphas and make a baby themselves. That would yield offspring by both natural and unnatural selection thus increasing the chances of success.

We know that the LRPB would take genetic material from two Alpha lines and cross them in the lab; that was the plan with the Detweiler and Bardasano lines (both being laboratory lines anyway).

One drawback to allowing natural crosses is that possibility of an unsatisfactory result; clearly the LRPB would step in at that point and cull the child with negative psychological results for the parents.

Theemile wrote:I take it you have not read the spoilers on the upcoming YA Stephanie Harrington books.

It's been posted on here before, and being in an upcoming book, it is to be considered a spoiler, so i will let everyone do their own research if so inclined.

But needless to say, The Harrington Alpha line is going to be a main plot point of the Stephanie Harrington books going forward.

I have not. It may clarify some of my speculation, provide hints to what may have actually happened and shut down other avenues of possibility, but that doesn't change the conclusion: Honor wouldn't exist if Alfred was still an Alpha under the control of the LRPB. Alfred himself wouldn't exist either.

It will be interesting to know whether Stephanie's pairing with Karl would have had LRPB approval in the first place. Because if not, then the theoretical Alpha line diverges right then and there.

penny wrote:Thanks for the info Theemile. As I stated upstream, the MA can easily sell me on the notion of Honor being an Alpha because the proof is in the pudding. Honor is certainly their equal or better. So, if Honor is not an Alpha, then the MA wasted a lot of research and effort reinventing the wheel. And the author would have wasted storyline on the MA and their research.

Oh, for sure the MAlign will think that Honor can only be their equal because she should have been an Alpha.

But that doesn't mean that it is true. I doubt RFC will tell us one way or another, but reasonable thinking is that she's greatly diverged from what the LRPB would have created with her ancestors. She is, indeed, a result of random, mostly-natural evolution, plus a great deal of nurture.

So I actually think the MAlign did reinvent the wheel. I don't think it invalidates the storyline in any way. The fact that the MAlign has done such terrible things in the name of uplift does not justify having done such things. The message we're getting is that the means do not justify the ends. In fact, RFC has said that there were better ways of accomplishing what they wanted and more, with much less suffering.