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tlb wrote:Just to make clear, here is a summary of my understanding.

An active sensor is any device that sends out a signal and reads the echo: so LIDAR or RADAR, etc.

A passive sensor is a device that reads the signals generated by (or at) the object of interest: so gravitics from wedges or transitions or heat signature, etc.

We do not know of any active FTL sensor. We expect that the spider drive creates vibrations in that Alpha wall (so FTL).

The spike when a spider drive starts up might be an electromagnetic power surge, which would be light speed.

Though there are deliberate FTL transmissions - FTL coms/fire control. It's just, as far as we know, there's nothing that those can echo back off of - so they can't be used as an active sensor.

(Though a few folks here have speculated that it's possible that a spider tractor's grab on the Alpha wall might cause a 'hard spot' that would distort or even reflect the grav ripples of FTL coms as they tried to pass through the point a spider tractor was currently grabbing -- potentially allowing FTL coms to be turned into some kind of spider drive detector. But that's purely forum speculation)

Relax wrote:Yikes guys

FTL = Gravitics from wedges, and hyperspace translations be they PASSIVE or ACTIVE(I guess since spider drive interacts with alpha wall they will be FTL?-->Unknown)

Light speed sensors are EVERYTHING else, LIDAR, RADAR, etc, be they ACTIVE or PASSIVE.

Clarification? Surely I misunderstand you. There is no such thing as passive LIDAR or RADAR. What am I missing?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Passive sensors are not FTL. They simply gather useful information quicker. But I still do not think that a passive scan can identify types of ships, other than simply wedges are coming online.

The MAIN passive sensor, the one that senses hyperspace transitions and wedges, IS FTL: the signal travels at sixty times the speed of light along the hyperspace boundary, which is why it gathers information faster. We have seen in the stories where the strength of the wedge is used to suggest the class of warship.

Yes, there are other passive sensors that do work with the speed of light; anything that senses signals in the electromagnetic spectrum, such as heat detectors or telescopes.

My point again is that passive sensors are not FTL! A passive sensor is passive; its direction is not controlled, therefore, how can it be FTL? The signals that it reads (the wedges gravitics) are FTL. But that does not give the passive sensors FTL ability. Although it is the same outcome. I agree. But a passive sensor is not going to detect radiation or heat signatures FTL. Passive sensors are at the mercy of the signal. So, no signal, no reading. Unlike active sensors that can generate a signal from a object lying doggo. But with limited range.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:Just to make clear, here is a summary of my understanding.

An active sensor is any device that sends out a signal and reads the echo: so LIDAR or RADAR, etc.

A passive sensor is a device that reads the signals generated by (or at) the object of interest: so gravitics from wedges or transitions or heat signature, etc.

We do not know of any active FTL sensor. We expect that the spider drive creates vibrations in that Alpha wall (so FTL).

The spike when a spider drive starts up might be an electromagnetic power surge, which would be light speed.

Though there are deliberate FTL transmissions - FTL coms/fire control. It's just, as far as we know, there's nothing that those can echo back off of - so they can't be used as an active sensor.

(Though a few folks here have speculated that it's possible that a spider tractor's grab on the Alpha wall might cause a 'hard spot' that would distort or even reflect the grav ripples of FTL coms as they tried to pass through the point a spider tractor was currently grabbing -- potentially allowing FTL coms to be turned into some kind of spider drive detector. But that's purely forum speculation)

Although, just as Honor first used a wedge to send a signal to hyper, perhaps a spider drive can duplicate the trick and send a signal to hyper, even unobtrusively.

penny wrote:My point again is that passive sensors are not FTL! A passive sensor is passive; its direction is not controlled, therefore, how can it be FTL? The signals that it reads (the wedges gravitics) are FTL. But that does not give the passive sensors FTL ability. Although it is the same outcome. I agree. But a passive sensor is not going to detect radiation or heat signatures FTL. Passive sensors are at the mercy of the signal. So, no signal, no reading. Unlike active sensors that can generate a signal from a object lying doggo. But with limited range.

That is precisely what gives it FTL ability.

What a fine piece of logic twisting. It is true that the sensors everyone else call FTL are not traveling at a speed greater than that of light when it does its sensing; but then the light speed sensors are not traveling at the speed of light either. They are all named based on the speed of the signal. What does direction have to do with the speed of the signal? We know that with a big enough array, the signal can be localized and that is all we need for direction and ranging.

Of course passive sensors are at the mercy of the signal, that is basically what passive means in this case. But that is not a bad thing, since sensing can be done without broadcasting the location of the sensing device.

PS: Heat signatures are light speed, no one has said that they were FTL.

PPS: Honor did not send a signal INTO hyperspace, instead she used wedge to send an FTL signal to another ship in normal space. This was claimed as the first conscious use of FTL communication.

penny wrote:Although, just as Honor first used a wedge to send a signal to hyper, perhaps a spider drive can duplicate the trick and send a signal to hyper, even unobtrusively.

Um, what?
No known signal can cross a hyper wall; and certainly not a wedge's emissions. If you want to signal someone in hyper you need to send a hyper generator equipped craft to carry the message there physically.

Honor used a wedge to send a signal FTL within normal space - a improvised and even slower precursor to the early grav comm. But that's just taking advantage of the fact that a wedge's causes FTL grav signals to propagate along the hyper wall.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Although, just as Honor first used a wedge to send a signal to hyper, perhaps a spider drive can duplicate the trick and send a signal to hyper, even unobtrusively.

Um, what?
No known signal can cross a hyper wall; and certainly not a wedge's emissions. If you want to signal someone in hyper you need to send a hyper generator equipped craft to carry the message there physically.

Honor used a wedge to send a signal FTL within normal space - a improvised and even slower precursor to the early grav comm. But that's just taking advantage of the fact that a wedge's causes FTL grav signals to propagate along the hyper wall.

Thanks! But I am truly confused. Isn't the hyper wall... hyper space?

penny wrote:Although, just as Honor first used a wedge to send a signal to hyper, perhaps a spider drive can duplicate the trick and send a signal to hyper, even unobtrusively.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, what?
No known signal can cross a hyper wall; and certainly not a wedge's emissions. If you want to signal someone in hyper you need to send a hyper generator equipped craft to carry the message there physically.

Honor used a wedge to send a signal FTL within normal space - a improvised and even slower precursor to the early grav comm. But that's just taking advantage of the fact that a wedge's causes FTL grav signals to propagate along the hyper wall.

penny wrote:Thanks! But I am truly confused. Isn't the hyper wall... hyper space?

It might be useful to think of it as a physical wall between normal space and the Alpha band of hyperspace (with others separating the various bands). The signal from a wedge or transition travels down the side of the wall the wedge is on or the transition destination; but is not seen on the other side of the wall.

PS: Not sure what to make of the wedge signal within a band, because then there are two walls. So two signals at different speeds?

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Although, just as Honor first used a wedge to send a signal to hyper, perhaps a spider drive can duplicate the trick and send a signal to hyper, even unobtrusively.

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, what?
No known signal can cross a hyper wall; and certainly not a wedge's emissions. If you want to signal someone in hyper you need to send a hyper generator equipped craft to carry the message there physically.

Honor used a wedge to send a signal FTL within normal space - a improvised and even slower precursor to the early grav comm. But that's just taking advantage of the fact that a wedge's causes FTL grav signals to propagate along the hyper wall.

penny wrote:Thanks! But I am truly confused. Isn't the hyper wall... hyper space?

It might be useful to think of it as a physical wall between normal space and the Alpha band of hyperspace (with others separating the various bands). The signal from a wedge or transition travels down the side of the wall the wedge is on or the transition destination; but is not seen on the other side of the wall.

PS: Not sure what to make of the wedge signal within a band, because then there are two walls. So two signals at different speeds?

Thanks a googol!

I have to keep stressing the fact that the stealth of the LDs allows them to get so close that traditional tactics and strategy goes out the window. Their doctrine will be totally different as even Honor understands and has stated herself regarding different technology.

Don't mention this to the author, but if an LD can get so close to a target, then weapons like the grav lance or the crippler should be extremely effective. And as a result of being able to deploy the weapons from a much closer range, they might be able to utilize even simpler technology in their design and yet be even more effective.

BTW, both of those are gravitic weapons. We do know that if two wedges get too close to each other, the smaller wedge is destroyed. We don't know what effect (if any) that a spider drive might naturally have on a wedge. An LD seems to have an uncanny relationship with gravity.