How advance are the Alpha lines?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:I doubt that the Harrington line was ever in their control. It is, after all, centuries older than the founding of Mesa. It is in their database of genetic enhancements, but, IMHO, it was never modified by them (wouldn't Allison noticed if Alfred and Honor had non-standard genetic modifications?).

You may be right. In fact, you're probably right. And yet the Detweilers talked about the Harrington line as if it had been on their control at some point.

We don't know when the Alignment itself was founded. We don't know when officially the Detweiler line became extinct (going underground). And we don't know when control, if any, over the Harringtons ceased: it might have been before Richard and Marjorie decided to emigrate to Manticore. It was hinted it was the act of moving that ceased control, but we don't know for sure. We also don't know if Richard and/or Marjorie knew anything about the Alignment -- I've paid attention to detail in the SK stories and nothing stands out. It was said that sometimes the control skipped a generation, so the two of them may not have been the generation to undergo training.

Then there is the Winton line, which, I believe, was never in their database. On one side, we have the Detweilers who had been steadily enhanced for centuries. On the other side, we have Elizabeth Winton and Honor Harrington whose ancestries hasn't been enhanced for over 10 generations. All have tempers from hell, who controls that better? Not the Detweilers.

No, the Wintons left Earth many centuries before Leonard Detweiler was born. They left before the Final War even, so before the Beowulf Code of Genetics too.

I still think everyone is missing the forest for the trees. At the end of the day, it isn't about making a more advanced population - except in the long run - but it is about increasing the average intelligence in the whole of the population. If everyone in the population has an IQ higher than Einstein's, then there is a higher aptitude across the board.

It isn't about being able to create an Alpha specifically for a certain role like a warship Captain. That isn't how it works. It is the whole 'build it and they will come' mentality. Or 'create them and they will come'.

Also, the consensus that the MA has a low population to choose from because of a lack of a success in creating Alphas is a misnomer. Even if a test subject fails to be what would be considered an Alpha does not mean that test subject is an idiot. Aptitude should be found within any test subject, barring any defects.

And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

penny wrote:And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

You missed the part about the Alignment not really have much in the way feeling about this process. When we see the McBride family, the parents and other siblings were a "nuclear family" in that they raised the children as a family but when Jack and Zack were recruited into the real Alignment (not the benign one that their parents were part of) they saw the larger picture of what was going on. I'm not clear if most of the population (non-seccci) of Mesa was the product of the Long Range Planning Board or if the Star Lines and then most of the Benign Alignment were all essentially handed their children after the LRPB made the adjustments.

We see what they did with Herlander and the "daughter" who was another in a series of experiments to develop various math abilities when they long knew that there was problems with series and that she was in the process if breaking down. His wife was find with the whole idea of culling the girl as oddly shaped concept of Quality of Live and she isn't ever going to reach any potential for the traits and abilities so we will terminate her. It's just a fact of life (and business) for the Alighmern. Until you get someone like Herlander. And, of course, Jack McBride who had begun to question the basis of the whole Alignment ethos and methods to work toward the Alignment goals. Nobody means much of anything other than their present and future value to the Alignment's goals. It also appears that anybody "below" your niche level in the scheme of things is usual treated as useful cattle - they were actually bred for the jobs they are put in. If they show some new advance or talent then that will be harvested and used in future models but actually creating children the old fashioned way is not a route the Alignment wants to take.

Have to wonder how the Detweiler Clones think about the ways they differ and how those differences are more a result of some faceless group of scientists tweeting Albrect's cells (with or without any input from his wife/their mother's actual genetics) to make them fit the roll planned for them. Or perhaps were there others that would have been them but didn't make the cut -lab rats in seperate facilities being evaluated till a choice is made.

penny wrote:I still think everyone is missing the forest for the trees. At the end of the day, it isn't about making a more advanced population - except in the long run - but it is about increasing the average intelligence in the whole of the population. If everyone in the population has an IQ higher than Einstein's, then there is a higher aptitude across the board.

This is the part of Leonard Detweiler's vision that RFC has said was right and has been proven right. Leonard wanted to improve humanity as a whole, though genetic manipulation. Humans had already been slightly bio-formed for some planets and environments, so this wasn't new. But being still close to the Final War, there was a lot of resistance at the time. And of course, his methods of doing that weren't completely ethical.

However, that is not the Alignment's objective. Or at least, the Malignant Alignment's. The Benign Alignment did want that for the entire population, though being persecuted they only did it to themselves in secretive ways. The Malignant's position isn't of improving humanity across the board at all, but to create strata of humanity with upper strata ruling the lower ones.

Also, the consensus that the MA has a low population to choose from because of a lack of a success in creating Alphas is a misnomer. Even if a test subject fails to be what would be considered an Alpha does not mean that test subject is an idiot. Aptitude should be found within any test subject, barring any defects.

And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

They appear to have a low population for two reasons.

First, because they are still secretive and haven't completely succeeded. The fact that they are still experimenting means there are still goals to be achieved. And we know we there are failures too. They couldn't let the cat out of the bag that lots of people were being manipulated and made better (for their criteria of "better" at least).

Second, because the Detweilers don't want competition. If everyone is special, then no one is special. As I said above, they want to create strata with them at the top, which means there can't be a hundred billion like them, not now and not ever. This feeling of being special will probably permeate the society through the star lines. We know one Gamma thinking how smart an Alpha was (the financial reporter who "gave" Audrey O'Hanrahan a lead).

I admit I could be wrong. But this does seem to fit the psychology that we've been led to believe.

Puidwen wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:.

Though, while I can't offhand remember if it was commented on in the books, Zilwicki likely has some heavy grav genetic mods in his family tree (just like Honor does) -- and if so his strength isn't all random chance. (Though he might be on the upper end of what that mod package offers)\

On one hand zilwicki looks like exactly what i would expect from a heavy worlder mod. On the other hand it's never mention anywhere as far as i know, not even in his own thoughts, and honor does think about her mods once in a while. I suppose because of the old anti-genie prejudice his parents decided to never tell him.[/quote]

I believe it was addressed in the short story where Helen is kidnapped, that both Tye and Zilwicki were pure random genetics - specifically mentioning that they were proof that Manpower had not "invented" a superman past the standard human genetic variance.

You are also leaving out other genetic mods. Look at the San Martineos. They are described as tall 2-2.5m in height and weighing 2-300kg. This because the planet San Martin has a gravity of 2.7g.

Brigade XO wrote:

penny wrote:And I doubt such a highly paranoid controlled society would lack in any nurturing roles other than what is missing by being created in a test tube.

You missed the part about the Alignment not really have much in the way feeling about this process. When we see the McBride family, the parents and other siblings were a "nuclear family" in that they raised the children as a family but when Jack and Zack were recruited into the real Alignment (not the benign one that their parents were part of) they saw the larger picture of what was going on. I'm not clear if most of the population (non-seccci) of Mesa was the product of the Long Range Planning Board or if the Star Lines and then most of the Benign Alignment were all essentially handed their children after the LRPB made the adjustments.

Yeah, the MA are probably the most prejudiced of all entities. But Helander's daughter was not considered a part of them. She was a failure. And the MA does not accept failures.

Brigade XO wrote:We see what they did with Herlander and the "daughter" who was another in a series of experiments to develop various math abilities when they long knew that there was problems with series and that she was in the process if breaking down. His wife was find with the whole idea of culling the girl as oddly shaped concept of Quality of Live and she isn't ever going to reach any potential for the traits and abilities so we will terminate her. It's just a fact of life (and business) for the Alighmern. Until you get someone like Herlander. And, of course, Jack McBride who had begun to question the basis of the whole Alignment ethos and methods to work toward the Alignment goals. Nobody means much of anything other than their present and future value to the Alignment's goals. It also appears that anybody "below" your niche level in the scheme of things is usual treated as useful cattle - they were actually bred for the jobs they are put in. If they show some new advance or talent then that will be harvested and used in future models but actually creating children the old fashioned way is not a route the Alignment wants to take.

Have to wonder how the Detweiler Clones think about the ways they differ and how those differences are more a result of some faceless group of scientists tweeting Albrect's cells (with or without any input from his wife/their mother's actual genetics) to make them fit the roll planned for them. Or perhaps were there others that would have been them but didn't make the cut -lab rats in seperate facilities being evaluated till a choice is made.

Really. Is anyone surprised what the result is of trying to increase math abilities? To me it seems to be a given. Increased math abilities is what is called a savant. Increasing math abilities without increasing common sense is asking for trouble. The world will look broken to a savant. Nothing will add up in their mind. The whole of humanity will appear to be broken to them. And a malignant humanity will look busted.

"This does not compute."

So, in their success was also their failure. What is essentially a savant on steroids will see the illogic of what has become of mankind.

One of the interesting side comments about what the Alignment/Manpower was doing comes in the thoughts of one of the characters when thinking about one of the people he is in contact with. The other guy is an Accountant and he has all the stereotypical mannerisms and habits of the classic fussy, detailed oriented "Accountant". A bean-counter, fastidious in his workplace, his world revolves around the numbers he is working with and analysis of those numbers. Regimented, rule-follower. The particular "model" line was designed/ genetically manipulated to develop the match and analytical talents for accounting.....but secondary side affects were to express broader mannerisms to not quite a comic level. Ok, this is science fiction and Murphy's Laws of unintended consequences are getting to have a field day. But...skills in keeping an orderly workplace and attention to detail MAY be something you need to have to do that kind of work. It is certainly encouraged because otherwise you spend way too much time trying to find stuff you need. Just like the classic Absent Minded Professor is usually one of two general variants. One is the brilliant (if focused in a very narrow direction) person who can't remember all sorts of things because they are often in their own world of though on an important (to them) project. The other is the person is just gets distracted all the time and ends up leaving a trail of messy living and work space and a lot of iffy social interaction because they keep skipping ahead on what they are concentrating on and get off the rails without quite always ending up with a disaster.
The results of the various genetic research are just that to the Alignment- research experiments that have to be evaluated based on the results compared to the the expectations or desired goals. If they don't work, you clean up your mess and try something else. That the "results" are living, thinking individuals is not part of the process. So they are culling "failed" experiments as you would destroy and discard a lab rat that developed aberrations after being exposed to some agent you want to test.
Such failures are all part of the process of scientific testing. The difficulty here is the Alignment is doing their testing on humans. Note that the Seccies on Mesa were 1) not ever getting Prolong and 2) more or less were NOT getting modifications to improve lifespan or much of anything else. They seem (because they were not now being produced by Manpower or any other labs) to be reproducing the old fashioned way but were still little more than a cheap workforce for the rest of the planet. They were disposable, trained to do only what was needed by Citizens and the various corporations . They only rated attention when they became security problems.
The Alphas and other Star Lines are sitting on the apex of their self constructed cast system and more or less don't think about the fact that they could possibly be culled by others who are making decisions based on "The Plan"-people which just might be susceptible to using the rational of uplifting humanity as a reason and method of eliminating their competition in the Star Line society. Fun.......

Puidwen wrote:honesty they don't seem all that advanced. Take the harrington line for example, with the exception of her telepathy, i think you get someone like or at least near Honor herself through random chance.

Honor has an editic memory. From Honor Among Enemies, Chpater 5:
She floated in zero-gee, and the surface of her brain listened attentively to everything Schubert said. She knew she'd be able to replay the entire conversation verbatim later, but for now her inner thoughts were busy with what she'd already learned about Project Trojan Horse.

That's a reather neat trick, if you can give it to everyone in your "Alpha Line".

GregD wrote:

Puidwen wrote:honesty they don't seem all that advanced. Take the harrington line for example, with the exception of her telepathy, i think you get someone like or at least near Honor herself through random chance.

Honor has an editic memory. From Honor Among Enemies, Chpater 5:
She floated in zero-gee, and the surface of her brain listened attentively to everything Schubert said. She knew she'd be able to replay the entire conversation verbatim later, but for now her inner thoughts were busy with what she'd already learned about Project Trojan Horse.

That's a reather neat trick, if you can give it to everyone in your "Alpha Line".

Her eidetic memory should have come up in the How does Honor know so much? thread. No wonder she eats books, technical manuals, schematics, bibles and anything else that she reads.


I expect these kinds of accoutrements to be widely found among the Inner Onion. Accessories. Isn't that what genetic uplift is all about?