Religious Treecats

Thinksmarkedly wrote:
-snip-

But culture is another thing. The MAlign is not going to be able to kidnap and maintain a live treecat clan that can pass on their culture and thus language and the understanding of mind-glow. If you just cloned a treecat from DNA and grew it in a tank, you'd get a wild / feral treecat that didn't know what to do with the mindglows. It would be like Tarzan: he could hear and make mouth noises, but he didn't speak.

That is why I proposed a treecat that volunteers on his own. Perhaps by act of a serendipitous bonding with an MA agent.

If a knowledgeable treecat is on Darius, then that Cat -- who is long lived -- can teach any cloned cats how to communicate. Tarzan was not incapable of being taught. He even learned to communicate with the animals.

penny wrote:That is why I proposed a treecat that volunteers on his own. Perhaps by act of a serendipitous bonding with an MA agent.

I think the RMN offering a commission to a treecat and letting them command a superdreadnought is more likely to happen.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly"[quote="Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

But given how Honor was discussing it, I don't think it's been treated as a state secret. The level of intelligence and the fact that they are truly telepathic, yes. But that they were good at empathy wasn't and that this particular nutrient was important in their diet.

It would be obvious to any biologist or geneticist that a species need certain nutrients found usually on the planet where they've evolved. No Alignment lab would make the mistake of lacking of Sphinxian native food, including that of other species that treecats would usually prey upon, like chipmunks. Honor's house on Grayson had some for the treecats there.

I aldo don't think the treecats aboard RMN ships lacked for the nutrients they needed. For one thing, the RMN would have proper food for them: the institutional knowledge was there. Honor as a cadet on her snotty cruise was able to feed Nimitz properly and her captain (Bachman) invited Nimitz to join them the Captain's table whenever he invited her. Moreover, I think it's not even difficult for the RMN, because their food is obtained from the same source: the MBS. Celery was an import and so must have a lot of others, but the Manticore population probably eats locally-evolved food too (with human-required nutrients fixed in).

I'd think it could be difficult to identify every significant trace nutrient or vitamin that the animal needed from their environment - especially ones that take a long time for symptoms to appear. (Just an example, deprive a human of vitamin C and it'll take about 3 months before symptoms of scurvy appear)

That was so tricky that the Royal Navy ended up making changes to their antiscorbutics in the 1800s that rendered them utterly ineffective[1], and it took decades for them to notice. (Basically until their Arctic and Antarctic expedition's started coming down with scurvy) Because, coincidentally, the changes that ruined their effectiveness coincided with improvements to ship design and propulsion that meant it was no longer common for ships to be a sea for months between port calls. So while their onboard diet was nearly free of vitamin C their ships almost always reached port (and fresh foods containing vitamin c) before scurvy could become apparent.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it took quite a while to work out that purple thorn (or Sphinxian celery) was critical for the 'cats -- much less to isolate the specific compound within it that was; so you could ensure that food or supplements with the necessary levels of that compound were provided.

And it's unlikely that you'd be able to recreate their entire habitat and ecosystem just to ensure you didn't accidently miss a critical trace compound in their diet.

----
[1] The RN did at least a couple things that ruined their previously effective lime juice based antiscorbutic (though not all of them at the same time, or on all ships). They started storing the juice in large copper containers, which reacted with the acidic juice to break down the vitamin c. And they started canning and boiling the juice, to preserve it for long endurance missions, and it turns out boiling destroys much of the vitamin c.
Of course all of this was before vitamin c was isolated and identified; much less when it was identified as the thing that prevented scurvy -- so that makes it harder to test to see if the changes ruined the effectiveness. They'd have had to do a series of 3+ month long comparison tests, with participants cut off from fresh food, to determine whether a given preparation or storage method harmed the antiscorbutic property.[/quote]

Actually it was the Spanish who first noticed scurvy. With their long voyages in the early to mid 16th century. Captain Cook was one of the first to understand and combat scurvy by using sauerkraut. When he first tried using it his crew would not eat it. So he used subterfuge. He had the barrels of sauerkraut stamped OFFICERS SUPPLIES and let pilferage take care of things.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly"[quote="Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

But given how Honor was discussing it, I don't think it's been treated as a state secret. The level of intelligence and the fact that they are truly telepathic, yes. But that they were good at empathy wasn't and that this particular nutrient was important in their diet.

It would be obvious to any biologist or geneticist that a species need certain nutrients found usually on the planet where they've evolved. No Alignment lab would make the mistake of lacking of Sphinxian native food, including that of other species that treecats would usually prey upon, like chipmunks. Honor's house on Grayson had some for the treecats there.

I aldo don't think the treecats aboard RMN ships lacked for the nutrients they needed. For one thing, the RMN would have proper food for them: the institutional knowledge was there. Honor as a cadet on her snotty cruise was able to feed Nimitz properly and her captain (Bachman) invited Nimitz to join them the Captain's table whenever he invited her. Moreover, I think it's not even difficult for the RMN, because their food is obtained from the same source: the MBS. Celery was an import and so must have a lot of others, but the Manticore population probably eats locally-evolved food too (with human-required nutrients fixed in).

I'd think it could be difficult to identify every significant trace nutrient or vitamin that the animal needed from their environment - especially ones that take a long time for symptoms to appear. (Just an example, deprive a human of vitamin C and it'll take about 3 months before symptoms of scurvy appear)

That was so tricky that the Royal Navy ended up making changes to their antiscorbutics in the 1800s that rendered them utterly ineffective[1], and it took decades for them to notice. (Basically until their Arctic and Antarctic expedition's started coming down with scurvy) Because, coincidentally, the changes that ruined their effectiveness coincided with improvements to ship design and propulsion that meant it was no longer common for ships to be a sea for months between port calls. So while their onboard diet was nearly free of vitamin C their ships almost always reached port (and fresh foods containing vitamin c) before scurvy could become apparent.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it took quite a while to work out that purple thorn (or Sphinxian celery) was critical for the 'cats -- much less to isolate the specific compound within it that was; so you could ensure that food or supplements with the necessary levels of that compound were provided.

And it's unlikely that you'd be able to recreate their entire habitat and ecosystem just to ensure you didn't accidently miss a critical trace compound in their diet.

----
[1] The RN did at least a couple things that ruined their previously effective lime juice based antiscorbutic (though not all of them at the same time, or on all ships). They started storing the juice in large copper containers, which reacted with the acidic juice to break down the vitamin c. And they started canning and boiling the juice, to preserve it for long endurance missions, and it turns out boiling destroys much of the vitamin c.
Of course all of this was before vitamin c was isolated and identified; much less when it was identified as the thing that prevented scurvy -- so that makes it harder to test to see if the changes ruined the effectiveness. They'd have had to do a series of 3+ month long comparison tests, with participants cut off from fresh food, to determine whether a given preparation or storage method harmed the antiscorbutic property.[/quote]

Actually it was the Spanish who first noticed scurvy. With their long voyages in the early to mid 16th century. Captain Cook was one of the first to understand and combat scurvy by using sauerkraut. When he first tried using it his crew would not eat it. So he used subterfuge. He had the barrels of sauerkraut stamped OFFICERS SUPPLIES and let pilferage take care of things.

Jonathan_S wrote:

ThinksMarkedly"[quote="Jonathan_S wrote:Ironically however, the diaspora of 'Cats might make knowledge of that compound, and its formulation, more widely known.

'Cats serving on RMN vessels before the war probably weren't away for long enough for deficiencies to be serious.

But once the 'cats started emigrating to other worlds, and especially raising kittens there (who, as they're still growing and developing the capabilities, probably need the compound more acutely than adults do) it would be critical to ensure they have access to that compound.

I don't know if the Manties could have gene-engineered some plant to create it directly, or if they'd have simply gone for working out industrial manufacturing of it by pharmaceutical companies (making it into, say, a supplement pill) -- but either way the information that a specific compound was needed for the long term health of 'cats would become far more widespread. And spreading its production and/or availability to more worlds would make it easier to acquire samples, or even the existing production instructions.

But given how Honor was discussing it, I don't think it's been treated as a state secret. The level of intelligence and the fact that they are truly telepathic, yes. But that they were good at empathy wasn't and that this particular nutrient was important in their diet.

It would be obvious to any biologist or geneticist that a species need certain nutrients found usually on the planet where they've evolved. No Alignment lab would make the mistake of lacking of Sphinxian native food, including that of other species that treecats would usually prey upon, like chipmunks. Honor's house on Grayson had some for the treecats there.

I aldo don't think the treecats aboard RMN ships lacked for the nutrients they needed. For one thing, the RMN would have proper food for them: the institutional knowledge was there. Honor as a cadet on her snotty cruise was able to feed Nimitz properly and her captain (Bachman) invited Nimitz to join them the Captain's table whenever he invited her. Moreover, I think it's not even difficult for the RMN, because their food is obtained from the same source: the MBS. Celery was an import and so must have a lot of others, but the Manticore population probably eats locally-evolved food too (with human-required nutrients fixed in).

I'd think it could be difficult to identify every significant trace nutrient or vitamin that the animal needed from their environment - especially ones that take a long time for symptoms to appear. (Just an example, deprive a human of vitamin C and it'll take about 3 months before symptoms of scurvy appear)

That was so tricky that the Royal Navy ended up making changes to their antiscorbutics in the 1800s that rendered them utterly ineffective[1], and it took decades for them to notice. (Basically until their Arctic and Antarctic expedition's started coming down with scurvy) Because, coincidentally, the changes that ruined their effectiveness coincided with improvements to ship design and propulsion that meant it was no longer common for ships to be a sea for months between port calls. So while their onboard diet was nearly free of vitamin C their ships almost always reached port (and fresh foods containing vitamin c) before scurvy could become apparent.

So I wouldn't be surprised if it took quite a while to work out that purple thorn (or Sphinxian celery) was critical for the 'cats -- much less to isolate the specific compound within it that was; so you could ensure that food or supplements with the necessary levels of that compound were provided.

And it's unlikely that you'd be able to recreate their entire habitat and ecosystem just to ensure you didn't accidently miss a critical trace compound in their diet.

----
[1] The RN did at least a couple things that ruined their previously effective lime juice based antiscorbutic (though not all of them at the same time, or on all ships). They started storing the juice in large copper containers, which reacted with the acidic juice to break down the vitamin c. And they started canning and boiling the juice, to preserve it for long endurance missions, and it turns out boiling destroys much of the vitamin c.
Of course all of this was before vitamin c was isolated and identified; much less when it was identified as the thing that prevented scurvy -- so that makes it harder to test to see if the changes ruined the effectiveness. They'd have had to do a series of 3+ month long comparison tests, with participants cut off from fresh food, to determine whether a given preparation or storage method harmed the antiscorbutic property.[/quote]

Actually it was the Spanish who first noticed scurvy. With their long voyages in the early to mid 16th century. Captain Cook was one of the first to understand and combat scurvy by using sauerkraut. When he first tried using it his crew would not eat it. So he used subterfuge. He had the barrels of sauerkraut stamped OFFICERS SUPPLIES and let pilferage take care of things.

penny wrote:That is why I proposed a treecat that volunteers on his own. Perhaps by act of a serendipitous bonding with an MA agent.

If a knowledgeable treecat is on Darius, then that Cat -- who is long lived -- can teach any cloned cats how to communicate. Tarzan was not incapable of being taught. He even learned to communicate with the animals.

We know that a cat could bond with someone who had been in the Onion, because Damien Harahap was adopted,

The question I have about this: what would the attitude be of the Detweilers to having a living lie detector walking around Darius?

tlb wrote:We know that a cat could bond with someone who had been in the Onion, because Damien Harahap was adopted,

The question I have about this: what would the attitude be of the Detweilers to having a living lie detector walking around Darius?

And speaking of Harahap, the attitude of the adoptee changes too. So this adoptee walking around the city of Leonard with a lie and emotion detector who's constantly informing the adoptee of the mood of others is a double security risk.

Penny's argument is that the treecat could be willing, so they wouldn't necessarily report on the lies and secrets, at least not the ones that the Onion is interested in keeping. But it seems that the reaction is physiological rather than a learned skill, so the treecat may not have a choice but to detect, fill ill at ease, and broadcast that to the adoptee. Even if both decide that they don't want to act on it, their reaction may tell others around them that a lie is being told or subterfuge being perpetrated.

tlb wrote:We know that a cat could bond with someone who had been in the Onion, because Damien Harahap was adopted,

The question I have about this: what would the attitude be of the Detweilers to having a living lie detector walking around Darius?

Not a problem. Any more than the lie detectors walking around the GA. There is no difference between lying by omission or lying to protect classified information as far as treecats are concerned. A treecat cannot discern between outright lies and little white lies. There are lots of lies told by GA officers and members of governments as well. A lie detector only comes into play during formal critical times, not everyday life.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:And speaking of Harahap, the attitude of the adoptee changes too. So this adoptee walking around the city of Leonard with a lie and emotion detector who's constantly informing the adoptee of the mood of others is a double security risk.

Not if the cat is bonded with a Detweiler.

But even if not, it could be a good thing for the GA, I agree. But it could also turn out to be a good thing for the MA as well. A good thing for everyone involved if this enlightened treecat ends up saving the entire galaxy from war. It could happen.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Penny's argument is that the treecat could be willing, so they wouldn't necessarily report on the lies and secrets, at least not the ones that the Onion is interested in keeping. But it seems that the reaction is physiological rather than a learned skill, so the treecat may not have a choice but to detect, fill ill at ease, and broadcast that to the adoptee. Even if both decide that they don't want to act on it, their reaction may tell others around them that a lie is being told or subterfuge being perpetrated.

If a treecat is bonded with someone in the Onion, the cat might be loyal to the Onion.

penny wrote:
Since treecats would be able to sense those kinds of emotions and utter tranquility, I wonder what kind of taste a true Christian's mind-glow would be to a Cat. It most certainly would have to interest them quite a bit.

As empaths, treecats would naturally understand the difference between fact and what an individual believes is true. They would sense a traditional Grayson male's belief that women are lesser, weaker beings, but they would also know the memory songs of Honor and her clan's women, Elizabeth III, Cathy Montaigne, Mike Henke, Shannon Foraker, and so on.

The 'cats know that two-legs think differently from The People, and have some notions that are alien to treecat ways. Because I can recall no test evidence that the treecats have any form of religion, even though their bond partners mostky do, I expect that the treecats see religion as just another two-leg peculiarity.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Penny's argument is that the treecat could be willing, so they wouldn't necessarily report on the lies and secrets, at least not the ones that the Onion is interested in keeping. But it seems that the reaction is physiological rather than a learned skill, so the treecat may not have a choice but to detect, fill ill at ease, and broadcast that to the adoptee. Even if both decide that they don't want to act on it, their reaction may tell others around them that a lie is being told or subterfuge being perpetrated.

penny wrote:If a treecat is bonded with someone in the Onion, the cat might be loyal to the Onion.

You didn't hear me. I said the reaction may be physiological, like smelling something foul causing someone to wrinkle their nose. Or being punched in the gut causing someone to double over. They may not have a choice but to react and thus make it evident to others around them that it has happened, including reactions to the subterfuge that the adoptee may have wanted to cause. That means this person cannot be allowed to interact with untrusted others.

That's a serious impediment for the Detweilers, who need to run an organisation. The alternative is to literally become a secluded Evil Lord petting a 'cat.