Attacking Darius:

Actually - this got me looking more closely at the Cataphract performance numbers for the sucker punch; and now I realize why at first blush they didn't seem to make much sense.

To End In Fire wrote:The range was down to barely twenty million kilometers, and the upgraded Cataphracts had a powered range of over nineteen million.
Even with a 1,630,000-kilometer ballistic phase, total flight time was only a hundred and fifty seconds.

150 seconds is shorter than the normal drive endurance on an SDM, and a Cataphract 1st stage is built on an SDM drive.

But after crunching through the numbers it seems clear that they actually launched with their first stage in it's full power, 60 second endurance mode. And further, that at that distance, with those drive numbers, it made sense to do so as it shaved about 35 seconds off their flight time.

With a half-power first stage all Cataphracts have a powered endurance of 180+75=255 seconds.

The improved Cataphracts Filareta's 11th fleet launch had a first stage with 701 KPS^2, meaning even if the 2nd stage hadn't been improved over the original design they'd have a continuous powered range of 23,500,000 km.

The "The latest, tweaked version of the Cataphract" from Uncompromising Honor improved that first stage accel to 840 KPS^2, so again even with zero improvements to the 2nd stage they should now have a continuous powered range of 27,600,000 km.

But with a full power first stage they'd only have 60+75 = 135 seconds of powered endurance (less than the 150 second flight time of the sucker punch). And the ballistic phase is actually not wildly far off for those UH cataphracts first stage in full power mode. 840*2 = 1680 KPS^2 (171,400 gees) for 60 seconds gives you 100,800 KPS, coast at that for 15 seconds gives you 1,512,800 km; only about 8% short of the 1,630,000 km the book quoted.
It'd actually need an accel of 1811 KPS^2 (184,800 gees) But then to have the stated range of "over nineteen million" the 2nd stage would need need an acceleration of around 2,800 KPS^s (326,500 gees) for its 75 seconds.
That'd make the first stage about 2x quicker than a Mk23 and the second stage about 2.2x quicker than a Mk30 or Mk31 CM.

So let's say those cataphract numbers are true. It can run at either:
905.5 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 2,800 KPS^2 for 75, or
1811 KPS^2 for 60 seconds, then 3,200 KPS^2 for 75

In the half-power launch they'd use the first stage for 110.5 seconds then cut over to the 75 second second stage, for 20.9 million km range in 185.5 seconds.

In the full-power launch they'd use the first stage for 60 seconds, coast for 15, then cut in the 75 second second stage, for 20.9 million km range in 150 seconds.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:What??
Hasta is "just" a missile pod with an RD drive strapped onto around it. All it does is haul Cataphracts across a star system to the point where they're in effective range to launch.

The Hasta pod doesn't need ECM because it is stealthy - and I can't recall anything in the books about them carrying hellish ECM, or ECM at all.

Not quite (see page 651), Hasta is a Cataphract missile and is similar to the Hasta used by the SLN (except with a graser instead of a laser warhead). The tug is a recon drone that is towing a pod of missiles and is not given a specific name.

Actualy looks like we're both somewhat wrong.
Check out TEIF (pg 241 of 415 of the .rtf format ebook)

To End In Fire wrote:The Hasta had been produced by Technodyne as an emergency counterweight for the MDM. It was slow and pathetically short-ranged compared to the Alignment’s spider drive torpedoes, but it was almost as stealthy, because it was basically a weaponized impeller-drive reconnaissance drone. That meant it could carry only a very light missile, however, since reconnaissance drones were stuffed full of the systems required for their designed mission. Which meant the Solarian version couldn’t possibly accommodate something the size of a graser torpedo warhead."

And TEIF (pg 389 of 415 of the .rtf format ebook)

To End In Fire wrote:Galton’s R&D had engineered the original graserhead down into something it could cram into an outsized conventional missile just small enough to fit into a Hasta III pod. It wasn’t as powerful as the graser torpedoes which had savaged Manticore’s industrial infrastructure in the Yawata Strike, but it was far more destructive than any X-ray laser, because its duration was measured in seconds, not milliseconds.

Or UH (pg 425 of 511 of the .rtf format ebook)

Uncompromising Honor wrote:In fact, they [Hasta] were no more than the mating of a slightly modified Explorator recon drone with a Cataphracht-C’s second stage.

Those Hastas had a first stage endurance of 10 minutes, and based on their ballistic coast speed apparently an acceleration of 15,000 gees (in the slightly stepped down slightly stealthier accel used at Beowulf).

The Hasta III were upgraded to accept the larger graser armed warheads, and used MAlign RDs instead of the lower tech SLN ones. But they are kind of a powered pod - but unlike what I thought they're not carrying multiple missiles and not carrying even one full up Cataphract.

Jonathan_S wrote:What??
Hasta is "just" a missile pod with an RD drive strapped onto around it. All it does is haul Cataphracts across a star system to the point where they're in effective range to launch.

The Hasta pod doesn't need ECM because it is stealthy - and I can't recall anything in the books about them carrying hellish ECM, or ECM at all.

tlb wrote:Not quite (see page 651), Hasta is a Cataphract missile and is similar to the Hasta used by the SLN (except with a graser instead of a laser warhead). The tug is a recon drone that is towing a pod of missiles and is not given a specific name.

Jonathan_S wrote:Actualy looks like we're both somewhat wrong.
-- snip --
The Hasta III were upgraded to accept the larger graser armed warheads, and used MAlign RDs instead of the lower tech SLN ones. But they are kind of a powered pod - but unlike what I thought they're not carrying multiple missiles and not carrying even one full up Cataphract.

No, the point I objected to was saying it was a pod; a pod is a container for a group of missiles. But I was wrong to say the tug was towing a pod and the missiles in that pod were Hastas; instead there was one tug (no name given) per Hasta missile. So we have a reusable recon drone towing a missile with a first stage of another recon drone and second stage of a missile carrying a graser warhead. The Cataphract was the first example we saw of putting two missiles together to achieve multi-drive capabilities.

See the two paragraphs before the call of "Vampire! Vampire!" in TEiF where the distinction between the Hasta and the tug is made clear.

Now a Hasta pod does exist (according to your text from page 389), but I take it to be an actual pod that could hold Hastas and I was surprised that it was not the thing towed by the tugs. Maybe the author has sometimes used "pod" the way you have here, but the Cataphract and the Solarian Hasta were called missiles, so far as I know.

The recon drones are stealthy; but the second stage that delivers the warhead isn't, so there could be some benefit to added ECM.

From Torch of Freedom:

Chapter 58 wrote:The Cataphract was a rather basic concept, actually—they'd simply grafted what amounted to an entire counter-missile drive unit onto the end of a standard shipkiller. Coming up with an arrangement which let them cram that much impeller power and a worthwhile laser head into something they could fit onto the end of a standard missile had demanded quite a bit of ingenuity (and not a few basic compromises), but it had been a far easier task than duplicating a full scale multidrive missile would have been.
There were drawbacks, of course; there always were, and especially so in what had to be a compromise solution.
The weapon carried only half as many lasing rods as a standard laser head. Worse, the Cataphract was twenty percent longer than a standard missile of any given weight, which meant it would no longer fit into launch tubes which had been designed to handle the single-drive missile upon which it was based. The Cataphract-C, built around the SLN's Trebuchet capital missile, could be fired only out of one of the missile pods the MAN hadn't seen fit to offer Citizen Commodore Luff.

Well missile numbers went off the rail quite a while ago at this point

Originally we had a ~70ton missile able to go at 1a or 1/2a for either 60s or 180s... CM's max endurance was 60s at 1a and a tonnage of ~10t.

From drawings we know that ~50%-->65% of a cruiser grade or capital grade missiles tonnage is its warhead and laser rod assembly. So, on a 70t cruiser grade missile, *****~40ish***** tons is warhead.

Then introduces longer endurance CM's with HIGHER acceleration(so compared to a normal SDM, it MUST sacrifice something) with endurance of 75s a nice 33% endurance increase from better caps...

Then the Cataphract... Supposedly puts a 40Ton~ish warhead on a 10ton missile. Remember RMN achieved a SINGLE rod and rearranging all the capacitors and fitting it through the impeller ring... a MUCH higher tonnage on a CM(Viper)...

Now we are to believe We take a ~10t standard SLN CM drive with its higher acceleration(power throughput) compared to SDM, and magically turn it into a 50+ ton missile with a full warhead yet its acceleration profile is the same? Not only that it is now 75s of endurance and has ZERO baffle problems as described in early books for why you COULD NOT build a multi stage impeller drive missile<<Poof>> said problem magic beans dissapears... Why the Hell would ANYONE graft that magic beans CM drive onto a SDM body? Throw out the GARBAGE SDM drive and attach another 10t magic beans CM... Heck, add 2 or 3 of the magic bean CM drives replacing tonnage of SDM drive and you now have an MDM superior to anything Manticore has, able to drive a 50t mass(nearly an SDM) at an even higher acceleration for 75s no less ... and it would still be vastly superior.

The whole premise is not universe consistent. Has all the benefits and no drawbacks... I threw my hands up long ago as hopeless to try fitting that GIANT square peg in a tiny round hole.

Jonathan_S wrote:So let's say those cataphract numbers are true. It can run at either:
905.5 KPS^2 for 180 seconds, then 2,800 KPS^2 for 75, or
1811 KPS^2 for 60 seconds, then 3,200 KPS^2 for 75

In the half-power launch they'd use the first stage for 110.5 seconds then cut over to the 75 second second stage, for 20.9 million km range in 185.5 seconds.

In the full-power launch they'd use the first stage for 60 seconds, coast for 15, then cut in the 75 second second stage, for 20.9 million km range in 150 seconds.

And that's why I don't think the scene makes mathematical sense. It doesn't matter if the GF was cleared for action, because they would've got there in 150 seconds. There's no way the GF stood down to Condition 4 while in the Galton system, so even if they weren't at Condition 1, they'd be at 2 at worst.

But I don't think those acceleration numbers are possible at all. Nothing we've seen so far can even come close. Moreover, if the MAlign@Galton had managed to produce such accelerations, it would mean they kept those missiles just for this reason for the end of the battle, instead of using it. I can see the MAlign preparing for this with malice aforethought (the whole sucker punch is so), but I don't see them having such missiles and not using them before in the battle.

Add to the fact that earlier in the book we have Gail looking at the tech specs of the Cataphract and wondering how far missile technology had come that they had a 30 million km of range. Her pondering matches what we knew about the Cataphracts, now this necessary performance for the end.

Though if those missiles do exist, then now the GA has the plans for them. Like they have the plans for:

Jonathan_S wrote:To End In Fire wrote:Galton’s R&D had engineered the original graserhead down into something it could cram into an outsized conventional missile just small enough to fit into a Hasta III pod. It wasn’t as powerful as the graser torpedoes which had savaged Manticore’s industrial infrastructure in the Yawata Strike, but it was far more destructive than any X-ray laser, because its duration was measured in seconds, not milliseconds.

They probably wouldn't have captured intact missiles (though there may be duds that could be retrieved) and the MAlign would definitely have tried to erase all the data, but they didn't destroy all stations, people are careless with data, and people have knowledge in their heads.

So the GA now has seconds-long firing grasers.

penny wrote:1. No other navy has ever contemplated such a tactic because it would be tantamount to suicide. No other navy would utilize a tactic that would intentionally send the crew on a one-way trip. But we're talking about the MAlign where the ends have always justified the means.

Not for an LD, not with such a low probability of success.

In order to attack someone using this tactic, you need:

a) for the target to be outside the hyperlimit, or just inside of it that it's effectively within energy range

b) to be static in space, so you can predict where it is. You can have a stealth ship nearby translate up to provide the final coordinates for translation, but unless the attacking force has already known where the victims will be, it needs time to get into position in hyper before translating down. This fine-grained control is what we know doesn't work.

c) be sure to win on the first shot

The ends do not always justify the means for the MAlign, not when they are the ones who have to pay the cost. And an LD is a very costly asset. Maybe you could use this tactic a couple of times against anything up to a battlecruiser division, but above that the chance of winning straight out drops a lot.

More importantly: you don't need an LD for this. There's nothing in this tactic that requires its unique advantages.

2. Hardware not functioning for 30 seconds notwithstanding, if true. Otherwise, no other navy had any crew that could function for those critical 30 seconds.

I withdraw this, then. It does look like it affects only sensors and for a much shorter time. I do maintain it's more than enough for the other side to see you first and start shooting -- if they aren't too startled, and that's a big "if."

The MA might be the sole entity where neither applies. One LD as a kamikaze is certainly the kind of thinking of the MA.

No, it isn't. I keep repeating that those are costly ships that take 3 years to build and are crewed by 10,000 MAN personnel who in turn took years to train. There are less than 50 systems in the entire Known Galaxy that could afford to build one, let alone enough of them that you could use them like water. So this is not the doctrine they are designed for and the crews trained for.

That's not to say they won't be used as kamikazes. But the circumstances for that have to chance and the MAlign must be losing badly for this to happen. It has to be a repeat of suckerpunch: trying to close on a cornered aninal.

The Salamander herself could be killed. Nobody would expect that attack because it isn't possible for any other navy to pull it off if they are paralyzed with nausea for 30 seconds.

Is a retired Honor worth the entire annual GDP of one of the RF members (other than Mannerheim)?

In At All Costs Honor asked her astrogator to place her in a specific range from her enemy. Where she was inside her envelope but outside of theirs. Why can't the opposite be feasible?

Because nothing we've seen indicates it is. It's hard to speculate without this, because it's not extrapolation any more.

I'll grant you it's possible, but only through some yet-unrevealed advantage that the MAN possesses. This may be why the LDs make no sense to me: because we don't know those advantages because they haven't come up yet.

Preferably inside that shell of LACs and recon drones. With pods pre-rolled and firing immediately, why wouldn't this work if the only thing preventing it before is the translation sickness that the MA might have eliminated?

Inside the shell of LACs? So they can turn and shoot their cruiser-grade grasers at you? If you're suicidal sure, but see above.

Jonathan_S wrote:To End In Fire wrote:Galton’s R&D had engineered the original graserhead down into something it could cram into an outsized conventional missile just small enough to fit into a Hasta III pod. It wasn’t as powerful as the graser torpedoes which had savaged Manticore’s industrial infrastructure in the Yawata Strike, but it was far more destructive than any X-ray laser, because its duration was measured in seconds, not milliseconds.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They probably wouldn't have captured intact missiles (though there may be duds that could be retrieved) and the MAlign would definitely have tried to erase all the data, but they didn't destroy all stations, people are careless with data, and people have knowledge in their heads.

So the GA now has seconds-long firing grasers.

Does the GA need a seconds long firing graser? We know from the beginning of UH that they are creating remote controlled firing stations using capital grade grasers taken from all the captured Solarian ships, which have the advantage of not blowing up when used. So unlike a mine, repeat shots are available as long as the power supply is not exhausted. We certainly have not seen that Chekhov's gun used yet.

Although that might give them ideas about a reusable recon drone carrying a graser. We know that even in the Honorverse, it does not take for people to decide to put various weapons on drones.

They should also have working examples of the streak drive and associated documentation.

tlb wrote:Does the GA need a seconds long firing graser?

I don't know. But if the MAlign thought they were useful, then there was a reason for them. Maybe it doesn't apply to the GA, but as you say, it opens up possibilities.

As penny has advocated, if you can make a 3-second-long firing graser, maybe you can make a more effective 3-millisecond one. We've argued that this need not be true and maybe it won't be, but if there's any two people whom I could see coming up with a use for this are our S&S duo.

Though I'll also grant that the MAN has had this for longer and thus must be further along any potential applications. Though again... such applications may again be found in the Galton system, allowing the GA to leapfrog again.

They should also have working examples of the streak drive and associated documentation.

Indeed, but Simões has been with the GA for now 2 years. I'd imagine they've already built prototypes. But it can't hurt to have actual samples.

Oh, here's an interesting thought: what if the streak drives at Galton haven't received the latest updates that Simões and team had been working on, or are subtly but measurably worse than they should be?

tlb wrote:They should also have working examples of the streak drive and associated documentation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed, but Simões has been with the GA for now 2 years. I'd imagine they've already built prototypes. But it can't hurt to have actual samples.

Oh, here's an interesting thought: what if the streak drives at Galton haven't received the latest updates that Simões and team had been working on, or are subtly but measurably worse than they should be?

It is true that Herlander was the only member of his team that we can be certain was not blown up with the Gamma Center.

tlb wrote:It is true that Herlander was the only member of his team that we can be certain was not blown up with the Gamma Center.

IIRC, Gamma Center was basically deserted when it blowed up.