Attacking Darius:

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:How is an opponent dead at 10 light seconds?

1) max energy weapons range against a target with side walls is 1.5 light seconds. energy weapons are worthless at 10 ls.

2) 10 LS was pretty much single drive missile range - Missiles which would take 3 minutes to reach their target.... and show where they came from from their wedges.

I don't disagree with your points - 10 LS range gives an RMN formation sufficient time to defend themselves - but a minor technical clarification

10 LS is slightly less than half of full SDM range, only about 3 million km. That is almost twice as far as an SDM at full power; but at its half-power setting one can cover that distance in "only" 116 seconds; so slightly under 2 minutes to reach their targets.

A DDM or MDM could cover that distance at full power in just 82 seconds.

And the latest Cataphract design we've seen could actually do so in 80 seconds (just 5 seconds on the 1st stage, and then the full 75 on the CM derived 2nd stage)


Still, even 80 seconds is plenty of time for anti-missile defense to kick in; and the trade-off for the reduced missile flight times is that the missiles are moving much slower making them far easier to intercept. For that matter, at 10 LS, the missies are launching from within range of Mk31 CMs (which have a 3.5 million km, or 11.6 LS, range).


Heck, those CM wedges could be shredding the hull of a LD at 10 LS just 69 seconds after they launch. And since sidewalls are incompatible with the LD's propulsion it doesn't appear to have any passive defense against wedge strikes -- if it doesn't hard kill every single CM their wedges would vaporize it...

You are not factoring in that an LD is an ambush predator. It is virtually undetectable beyond 1 LS. So, it should be able to manage 10 LS with ease. Especially if it is sitting inside an enemy system awaiting like a Spider with a web. Like Fearless in the War Games. But I certainly don't think you are allowing for the Hasta III acceleration which would be accompanied by ECM that is almost as good as GA ECM now; and that ~ parity comes without the increased energy budget that we all know is coming. So, if the sucker punch really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

The bit about the grasers was meant for any ships that may be within range after the shooting starts. Like cruisers and LACs.

Again, that is what I think that scene is all about, to provide the MA data on the efficacy of a launch within range. Well, almost within range. From a stealthy attack. It doesn't matter how the stealth was achieved. But 20M km is a far cry away from 3M ... with improved ECM.

.

penny wrote:So, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

Where did you find 11 SD's kills, when you agreed before that it killed 3 capital ships (1 CLAC and 2 SD's)? Any further kills were due to the sucker punch.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:nSo, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

Where did you find 11 SD's kills, when you agreed before that it killed 3 capital ships (1 CLAC and 2 SD's)?

Shuttlecock killed 11 SDs.

penny wrote:So, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

tlb wrote:Where did you find 11 SD's kills, when you agreed before that it killed 3 capital ships (1 CLAC and 2 SD's)?

penny wrote:Shuttlecock killed 11 SDs.

I still think you are including the sucker punch. Show some text.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:So, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

tlb wrote:Where did you find 11 SD's kills, when you agreed before that it killed 3 capital ships (1 CLAC and 2 SD's)?

penny wrote:Shuttlecock killed 11 SDs.

I still think you are including the sucker punch. Show some text.

My badd, yes, the sucker punch. Not Shuttlecock. I edited it upstream. Sorry.

The sucker punch scene was included for MA consumption of the efficacy of a launch from stealth. It managed that stealth from shipping containers. But it doesn't matter how the stealth was achieved. And I won't agree the GA were not still cleared for action.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't disagree with your points - 10 LS range gives an RMN formation sufficient time to defend themselves - but a minor technical clarification

10 LS is slightly less than half of full SDM range, only about 3 million km. That is almost twice as far as an SDM at full power; but at its half-power setting one can cover that distance in "only" 116 seconds; so slightly under 2 minutes to reach their targets.

A DDM or MDM could cover that distance at full power in just 82 seconds.

And the latest Cataphract design we've seen could actually do so in 80 seconds (just 5 seconds on the 1st stage, and then the full 75 on the CM derived 2nd stage)


Still, even 80 seconds is plenty of time for anti-missile defense to kick in; and the trade-off for the reduced missile flight times is that the missiles are moving much slower making them far easier to intercept. For that matter, at 10 LS, the missies are launching from within range of Mk31 CMs (which have a 3.5 million km, or 11.6 LS, range).


Heck, those CM wedges could be shredding the hull of a LD at 10 LS just 69 seconds after they launch. And since sidewalls are incompatible with the LD's propulsion it doesn't appear to have any passive defense against wedge strikes -- if it doesn't hard kill every single CM their wedges would vaporize it...

You are not factoring in that an LD is an ambush predator. It is virtually undetectable beyond 1 LS. So, it should be able to manage 10 LS with ease. Especially if it is sitting inside an enemy system awaiting like a Spider with a web. Like Fearless in the War Games. But I certainly don't think you are allowing for the Hasta III acceleration which would be accompanied by ECM that is almost as good as GA ECM now; and that ~ parity comes without the increased energy budget that we all know is coming. So, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

The bit about the grasers was meant for any ships that may be within range after the shooting starts. Like cruisers and LACs.

Again, that is what I think that scene is all about, to provide the MA data on the efficacy of a launch within range. Well, almost within range. From a stealthy attack. It doesn't matter how the stealth was achieved. But 20M km is a far cry away from 3M ... with improved ECM.

We're didn't dispute that it might be able to sneak to within 10 LS - just pointing out that getting that close doesn't guarantee it can kill all its targets as it'd have to use some kind of missile or torpedo and those take non-trivial amounts of time to cross that distance.

As for Hasta III, we don't seem to be given performance data on it - just told it "was a distinct improvement upon the original Solarian version, with a far more robust main drive and stealth features that were better than anything the SLN had ever had"

FWIW the SLN Hasta had an acceleration of about 15,000 gees[1] - which is quite good for an RD - even before you consider Hasta is weighted down with a load of Cataphracts - but at 3 million km you'd see any RD accelerating that hard - much less one that's enlarged to carry missiles. Even Ghost Riders can only hide their wedge, even at long ranges, at acceleration below 5,000 gees; but have been seen to pull 20,000 gees when they don't care about being seen.

But there's no point to Hasta at just 3 million km (10 LS).
Its whole purpose is to extend the range of the Cataphracts it carries - to act as a 3rd stage, or a powered pod, to get them from the launch vehicle to within their own powered range. But, as noted previously, 10 LS is well within Cataphract range already so you don't need Hasta. (And as soon as its Cataphracts launch they'll be blindingly obvious to any grav sensor)

------
[1] "A Hasta’s endurance was barely ten minutes. At the end of that brief interval, its impellers went down forever and it sliced onward through the void at a constant velocity of 88,260 KPS"
600 s @ 15000 g = 88,200 KPS

penny wrote:My badd, yes, the sucker punch. Not Shuttlecock. I edited it upstream. Sorry.

The sucker punch scene was included for MA consumption of the efficacy of a launch from stealth. It managed that stealth from shipping containers. But it doesn't matter how the stealth was achieved. And I won't agree the GA were not still cleared for action.

Yes, 11,000 missiles (and slightly more than twice the flight time of a 10 LS launch) for around a thousand hits.

Let's ignore that just a pair of SD(P)s and screen have previously tanked a salvo of 17,000 MDMs, losing just one damaged SD(P) -- HMS Intolerant. Though, to be fair, that's because the missiles massively overkilled her, to the point of relatively neglecting the more combat effective HMS Imperator.
(And also ignore that the Cataphracts launched there had lower performance than the ones we'd seen in UH). Based on previous combat performance Galton should have needed a lot more missiles to get that many through the grand fleet's defenses.

But even taking that 11,000 at a good benchmark - an LD isn't going to able to launch a salvo of 11,000 Cataphracts. And I don't think saving half the flight time, at the expense of 56% of their terminal velocity, is going to make a 10 LS launch all that much more effective than the 67 LS sucker punch launch.
But missile defense is non-linear; half as many targets are less than half as hard to stop; and any missile defense is subject to saturation where there are simply more targets than it can physically engage -- at which point the attack becomes vastly more effective. So you need vast numbers to overwhelm a GA fleet's missile defense - and I just don't see how a single LD can't throw that many in the single salvo you'd need to generate that overload.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't disagree with your points - 10 LS range gives an RMN formation sufficient time to defend themselves - but a minor technical clarification

10 LS is slightly less than half of full SDM range, only about 3 million km. That is almost twice as far as an SDM at full power; but at its half-power setting one can cover that distance in "only" 116 seconds; so slightly under 2 minutes to reach their targets.

A DDM or MDM could cover that distance at full power in just 82 seconds.

And the latest Cataphract design we've seen could actually do so in 80 seconds (just 5 seconds on the 1st stage, and then the full 75 on the CM derived 2nd stage)


Still, even 80 seconds is plenty of time for anti-missile defense to kick in; and the trade-off for the reduced missile flight times is that the missiles are moving much slower making them far easier to intercept. For that matter, at 10 LS, the missies are launching from within range of Mk31 CMs (which have a 3.5 million km, or 11.6 LS, range).


Heck, those CM wedges could be shredding the hull of a LD at 10 LS just 69 seconds after they launch. And since sidewalls are incompatible with the LD's propulsion it doesn't appear to have any passive defense against wedge strikes -- if it doesn't hard kill every single CM their wedges would vaporize it...

You are not factoring in that an LD is an ambush predator. It is virtually undetectable beyond 1 LS. So, it should be able to manage 10 LS with ease. Especially if it is sitting inside an enemy system awaiting like a Spider with a web. Like Fearless in the War Games. But I certainly don't think you are allowing for the Hasta III acceleration which would be accompanied by ECM that is almost as good as GA ECM now; and that ~ parity comes without the increased energy budget that we all know is coming. So, if Shuttlecock really does have merit, which killed 11 SDs without the kill power or the ECM of the Hasta III, then launching from inside 10 LS with improved ECM - which may even rival GA ECM if there is almost a parity now - then the enemy is dead.

The bit about the grasers was meant for any ships that may be within range after the shooting starts. Like cruisers and LACs.

Again, that is what I think that scene is all about, to provide the MA data on the efficacy of a launch within range. Well, almost within range. From a stealthy attack. It doesn't matter how the stealth was achieved. But 20M km is a far cry away from 3M ... with improved ECM.

Jonathan_S wrote:We're didn't dispute that it might be able to sneak to within 10 LS - just pointing out that getting that close doesn't guarantee it can kill all its targets as it'd have to use some kind of missile or torpedo and those take non-trivial amounts of time to cross that distance.

As for Hasta III, we don't seem to be given performance data on it - just told it "was a distinct improvement upon the original Solarian version, with a far more robust main drive and stealth features that were better than anything the SLN had ever had"

FWIW the SLN Hasta had an acceleration of about 15,000 gees[1] - which is quite good for an RD - even before you consider Hasta is weighted down with a load of Cataphracts - but at 3 million km you'd see any RD accelerating that hard - much less one that's enlarged to carry missiles. Even Ghost Riders can only hide their wedge, even at long ranges, at acceleration below 5,000 gees; but have been seen to pull 20,000 gees when they don't care about being seen.

But there's no point to Hasta at just 3 million km (10 LS).
Its whole purpose is to extend the range of the Cataphracts it carries - to act as a 3rd stage, or a powered pod, to get them from the launch vehicle to within their own powered range. But, as noted previously, 10 LS is well within Cataphract range already so you don't need Hasta. (And as soon as its Cataphracts launch they'll be blindingly obvious to any grav sensor)

------
[1] "A Hasta’s endurance was barely ten minutes. At the end of that brief interval, its impellers went down forever and it sliced onward through the void at a constant velocity of 88,260 KPS"
600 s @ 15000 g = 88,200 KPS

No? With Hastas you get the hellish ECM, that will be improved later on.

I was also going to point out the sucker punch had no terminal maneuvering capabilities. And launching from such a low range should allow the mother ship to guide them in even better. No? And, that launch wasn't concentrated. I'd expect Hastas to be as effective against GA point defense as Apollo was against Haven's. Or even better.

But, when utilized in the MBS where the fleet isn't cleared for action. Game, set, match. That is the data gained from the sucker punch.

penny wrote:No? With Hastas you get the hellish ECM, that will be improved later on.

What??
Hasta is "just" a missile pod with an RD drive strapped onto around it. All it does is haul Cataphracts across a star system to the point where they're in effective range to launch.

The Hasta pod doesn't need ECM because it is stealthy - and I can't recall anything in the books about them carrying hellish ECM, or ECM at all.


Heck, in the cases we've seen them used they've run out of power and are ballistically coasting long before it reaches their target. (Which is why a Galton they were so glad Honor's fleet wasn't making random high acceleration course changes -- it gave time for the Hasta pods, accelerated by the tugs and then their own RD drives, to coast into range without the fleet simply changing course and going elsewhere; leaving the Hastas to coast past beyond the effective range of their Cataphracts)

And there's no indication that the Cataphracts that Hasta carries have ECM any different from any other Cataphract.
So please show where the text talks about Hasta having hellish ECM

penny wrote:I was also going to point out the sucker punch had no terminal maneuvering capabilities.

Again, what??
It was a cataphract launch, and yes it said that there was a 1,630,000-kilometer ballistic phase but that would have been between stage 1 and stage 2. Stage 2, with it's CM derived drive, should still have had time on its drive for terminal maneuvering -- unless whoever set up the sucker punch was incompetent.

penny wrote:No? With Hastas you get the hellish ECM, that will be improved later on.

Jonathan_S wrote:What??
Hasta is "just" a missile pod with an RD drive strapped onto around it. All it does is haul Cataphracts across a star system to the point where they're in effective range to launch.

The Hasta pod doesn't need ECM because it is stealthy - and I can't recall anything in the books about them carrying hellish ECM, or ECM at all.

Not quite (see page 651), Hasta is a Cataphract missile and is similar to the Hasta used by the SLN (except with a graser instead of a laser warhead). The tug is a recon drone that is towing a pod of missiles and is not given a specific name.