Attacking Darius:

tlb wrote:I am saying that the Grand Alliance has written into their own laws and code of conduct various prohibitions, including making it illegal for their personnel to commit what once would have been considered an EE violation.

Jonathan_S wrote:But the question is what standard are they holding themselves to - and how high to they assess the risk of a stray missile or large scale debris?

Before the fall of the League the standard most governments seemed to hold their navies to is they shall undertake no action that could give OFS or the League any possible excuse to intervene against them under even the most wildly broad and expansive interpretation of the Edict.

Basically to assume the League is just itching for any excuse to take over -- and avoid any risk of giving them that excuse.

That's far more restrictive than just honoring the letter, or even the spirit, or the Edict.


Under the letter, and even the spirit, of the Edict using civilian populations in an attempt to provide human shields around military forces forfeits those civilian's protection under the Edict -- at least as far as collateral damage resulting from WMD attacks on those military forces. So, putting forts in low orbit around a planet in the hope of discouraging missiles from firing at them just means that the attacking force is no longer liable for collateral damage that might result from targeting and engaging those forts.

Now the GA might well hold themselves to an even higher standard of minimizing collateral civilian casualties. Though given the accuracy and range of Apollo they might also be able to engage low orbit forts with almost no concern about a stray missile hitting the planet (though debris from damaged forts might still be a concern)

I am willing to accept this, but you seemed to be saying earlier that there no longer was a moral or legal standard the GA needed to apply; just a tactical standard, since the Malign was the enemy and the Edict was no longer enforced. I do not expect the Grand Alliance to only maintain minimum standards.

There is still a problem with using Apollo to attack low level forts; it is best for a single ship to only attack those forts that are seen to the side of the planet (as opposed to those where the planet is seen behind the fort), because then the missile flight and the laser head do not have the planet as a back stop. Actually the ideal weapon to attack the forts is to have the GA make their own version of the graser torpedo; the recon drone body can get close and the micro fusion reactor can power multiple shots for the biggest graser that can be mounted.

penny wrote:https://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10816&hilit=Castling

In The Strategy of Castling thread I suggested that Darius would/could utilize the tactic of pulling their forts back and placing them around the planet; knowing the GA would not fire on these platforms considering their moral compass. It seems I was correct about that.

This rests on a probably faulty assumption: that the GA missiles might hit the planet.

From TEiF, it looks like they're very accurate. Honor was lobbing them at Galton's forts from 10-12 light-minutes away and she demolished them. None of them went after habitats, which would be a far easier target to mistake for than a planet.

If the forts wanted to actually hide behind habitats (assuming there are any), the targetting might be more difficult, because the habitats may occlude the direct line of sight from the missiles to the target. But at this point you have to consider the population, and the Darius population is not militaristic. Habitat residents are likely to evacuate at the first sign of trouble, and more so if the forts cowardly hide themselves behind those habitats. You also have to consider the rank and file aboard the forts, who aren't hardcore Onion members and would not like to have friends & family used as human shields: it's a recipe for mutiny.

The accuracy of MDMs varies by the need of the plot. For example, the RHN was shooting up orbital infrastructure from the hyperlimit and next they won’t engage Sphinx platforms at much closer range.

What the apparently greater portion of the population Darius consists of is the slaves that don't know they are slaves. On the other hand, the leadership of the Alignment can, in fact, order the non-Alpha portions of the populations which are in any orbital facility or habitat to NOT EVACUATE and that order will be enforced.....this is the Alignment we are talking about.

Well, I suppose they could be ordered 1st to not evacuate and then ordered to surge out mostly in the direction of attackers--and all the "evacuation" ships are armed with missiles and other weapons under the Alpha's control so they start shooting at the attackers when they get in range while accelerating like tinfoil kamikaze craft to die mostly to blacken the name of the GL. Again, this is the Alignment we are talking about.

And we have also seen that the Alignment has no qualms or hesitation in killing off whatever members that be become a problem or risk interrogation or just need to be "tidied up" to avoid security leaks or become inconvenient to extract when timing gets short.

So "civilian" populations in the Darius System are not worth much to the Alignment when they become a liability or can be used (at least short term) as shields or cynically set up to be slaughtered to either give the Alignment an out or cover. You can bet your last credit that there will be an orgy of detentions in the Darius System that will make the Final Flourish look a dud firework--all as cover for the Alignment.

Yes, my cynicism is overflowing.

Brigade XO wrote:What the apparently greater portion of the population Darius consists of is the slaves that don't know they are slaves. On the other hand, the leadership of the Alignment can, in fact, order the non-Alpha portions of the populations which are in any orbital facility or habitat to NOT EVACUATE and that order will be enforced.....this is the Alignment we are talking about.

How would you do that? We're talking about desperate people who are seeing an invasion coming out the portholes on one side and the forts hiding behind the habitats on the other side. They know they are in the line of fire, so people will be trying to take the shuttles out.

What can the Alignment do then? Use police force to keep people from evacuating? And how do you convince the police from joining in? Are they all GAULs? Even if they are, and especially if they are ruthless in suppressing the evacuation, that would cause a mob.

Should the forts shoot down evacuation ships? That's the best way to get the entire population to turn on you. You can bet the Ghost Riders would get extremely detailed scans of this and will beam the video to the planet, so everyone with a wireless receiver will get proof that the Darius leaders are actually against them. Sure, not everyone would believe, but enough of them will and that causes mobs on the planet.

Well, I suppose they could be ordered 1st to not evacuate and then ordered to surge out mostly in the direction of attackers--and all the "evacuation" ships are armed with missiles and other weapons under the Alpha's control so they start shooting at the attackers when they get in range while accelerating like tinfoil kamikaze craft to die mostly to blacken the name of the GL. Again, this is the Alignment we are talking about.

There's no way a shuttle can be of tactical use in such a fight. The attackers would not be close enough in the first place if the forts are still around. On the other hand, if the forts are already gone and we're install talking about the same tactic that happened in Galton, then, well, it's the exact same thing that happened in Galton. You can't try the same trick twice and expect it to work.

So "civilian" populations in the Darius System are not worth much to the Alignment when they become a liability or can be used (at least short term) as shields or cynically set up to be slaughtered to either give the Alignment an out or cover. You can bet your last credit that there will be an orgy of detentions in the Darius System that will make the Final Flourish look a dud firework--all as cover for the Alignment.

Yes, my cynicism is overflowing.

I agree they would not hesitate to dispose of the entire population if it helps them escape.

The problem is that turning the population against you is counterproductive to your escaping. At worst, this could be a way to cause noise for their escape to be lost in.

Brigade XO wrote:So "civilian" populations in the Darius System are not worth much to the Alignment when they become a liability or can be used (at least short term) as shields or cynically set up to be slaughtered to either give the Alignment an out or cover. You can bet your last credit that there will be an orgy of detentions in the Darius System that will make the Final Flourish look a dud firework--all as cover for the Alignment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I agree they would not hesitate to dispose of the entire population if it helps them escape.

The problem is that turning the population against you is counterproductive to your escaping. At worst, this could be a way to cause noise for their escape to be lost in.

Why would it ever get to this? The Malign has the perfect ships for a stealthy escape. Of course they could create a bloodbath out of sheer evil; particularly if it destroys secrets and disguises the flight.

The problem is escape where? To the Renaissance Factor, in ships of unusual design? I have suggested before that there should be a Darius 2.0 set up somewhere safe; that would give them refuge if Darius is found. Someplace that they can figure out what went wrong for several hundred years as they work out what to do next, after everyone has forgotten about them.

The Grand Alliance wasn't the Alignment and it wouldn't act like the Alignment. Not because of what it owed the Alignment, but because of what it owed itself...and to history.

Honor's speech before departing. The moral compass I spoke of. Although she argued for a strike at the OWPs as soon as she entered orbit, and was denied by the Admiralty. Megan Petersen also argued against the strike, because of the bad taste still lingering in her mouth about Hypatia.

The GA is cut from a different cloth. If they start acting like the Alignment, then they have lost their souls as well as the many lives over the course of the hidden war with the Alignment.

Thinksmarkedly, there are way too many passages admitting that the MA's stealth is better. And that is simply based on what we saw in the Galton system.

Again, how much better will MA stealth and their tech get when they break the secret of the mini Manty powerplant.

Brigade XO wrote:What the apparently greater portion of the population Darius consists of is the slaves that don't know they are slaves. On the other hand, the leadership of the Alignment can, in fact, order the non-Alpha portions of the populations which are in any orbital facility or habitat to NOT EVACUATE and that order will be enforced.....this is the Alignment we are talking about.

Well, I suppose they could be ordered 1st to not evacuate and then ordered to surge out mostly in the direction of attackers--and all the "evacuation" ships are armed with missiles and other weapons under the Alpha's control so they start shooting at the attackers when they get in range while accelerating like tinfoil kamikaze craft to die mostly to blacken the name of the GL. Again, this is the Alignment we are talking about.

And we have also seen that the Alignment has no qualms or hesitation in killing off whatever members that be become a problem or risk interrogation or just need to be "tidied up" to avoid security leaks or become inconvenient to extract when timing gets short.

So "civilian" populations in the Darius System are not worth much to the Alignment when they become a liability or can be used (at least short term) as shields or cynically set up to be slaughtered to either give the Alignment an out or cover. You can bet your last credit that there will be an orgy of detentions in the Darius System that will make the Final Flourish look a dud firework--all as cover for the Alignment.

Yes, my cynicism is overflowing.

Don't sell yourself short. It isn't cynicism, it is truth. The MA will not hesitate to utilize the slaves as pawns. As they have used anyone outside the Inner Onion as pawns as well. As I opined long ago in a galaxy ...

penny wrote:Thinksmarkedly, there are way too many passages admitting that the MA's stealth is better. And that is simply based on what we saw in the Galton system.

Again, how much better will MA stealth and their tech get when they break the secret of the mini Manty powerplant.

Please point to some text that supports this. Galton's recon drones (which should have their stealthiest features) were all detected by the GA.

The MA's best stealth technology is the spider drive, which Galton did not have.