Attacking Darius:

penny wrote:Occlusion is one reason I assumed the fabric achieved the stealth by bending the light around the object. That would solve the problem of occlusion. The relatively short distance light would have to detour would be insignificant.

I do not think that bending solves the problem of occlusion for smart paint; the image still has to emerge from a specific spot on the spider ship relative to the enemy. Whether it got there by traveling through an optic fiber or being absorbed on one side and recreated on the other; the resulting image still would be triangulated to the side of the ship (provided the distance is small enough to show parallax).

Note there is nothing occluded by the fabric except dirt.

However it occurs to me that the bending in other SF stories involves some sort of gravity effect that causes radiation arriving from any angle to bend around and then recollinate on the opposite side. This would create a pocket of invisibility for whatever machine causes the gravity bending. It would also blind someone in the pocket from anything happening outside, unless a tiny bit of light was allowed to leak in. This does solve the occlusion problem from any direction, however this is not something that can be accomplished with smart paint.

Why do I say smart paint cannot accomplish that? Because the text on smart paint says this:

Instead of the relatively simpleminded nanotech of most ships' "paint," the surface of Apparition's hull was capable of mimicking effectively any portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Her passive sensors detected any incoming radiation, from infrared through cosmic rays, and her computers mapped the data onto her hull, where her extraordinarily capable nannies reproduced it. In effect, anyone looking at Apparition when her stealth was fully engaged would "see" whatever the sensors exactly opposite his viewpoint "saw," as if the entire ship were a single sheet of crystoplast.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:
would not appear to satisfy the passage's claim of being transparent, let alone being completely transparent.

There is no way that light can pass through stealthed objects to appear to be transparent; like when we discussed the fact that the WHJ has to be transparent to sensors to prevent occluding objects, like warships.

I do not understand your confusion; from the ground it behaves as a window and a window

Well... yes and No.
Basic reality: A sensor is directional in what it receives. Likewise an emitter is ALSO directional in what it radiates.

So, for a Singular object observing and if the "stealthed" object KNOWS that single observer is watching, then technically, Yes, one can appear to be transparent. Assuming one can capture close enough to ~perfect the background you are occluding and transmit that background TOWARDS the single observing object.

As soon as there is more than a SINGLE observer, then 100% no, you cannot appear transparent as neither your sensors detecting background radiation pattern nor your radiator devices can radiate at correct different magnitudes in all directions simultaneously. Radiators can radiate varied magnitudes in wave forms in multiple directions, but Not simultaneously continuous.

I believe same passage of text says, something akin to: "If they launched RD's their stealth would vanish instantly"... but since The ships in question were sufficient distance away each ship would "see" the same background and therefore would be VERY hard to distinguish a slight wavering in magnitude of the background that should be.

Sine of angle, small angles ~= 1 is why this works, but as soon as one would gain sufficient angular displacement with say, an RD, or even another Ship, if said ships were sufficiently spaced apart, then the gig, would be up.

This is why the entire precept of the Spider Drive against a task force or any kind of actual battle even at the squadron level is utterly absurd. Even DD's have RD's and use them at the first WHIFF of a problem. A system such as Manticore etc in reality just so shuttles etc do not smash into each other have a MULTITUDE of redundant navigation systems. These Multi redundant navigation systems will only work if they have multi redundant System wide SENSOR nets from MULTIPLE angles who all share data and they alone with a little tweaking will be able to see occlusions in reality.

In short the LD's as "defensive" units is actually partially viable as anyone attacking Darius would not have said sensor net to go off of, but any Spider Ship attacking anything other than at long distance should be near impossible to anyone actually LOOKING for them. Negligence, sure anyone can get in even if the universes most saturated system sensor net.

Relax wrote:I believe same passage of text says, something akin to: "If they launched RD's their stealth would vanish instantly"... but since The ships in question were sufficient distance away each ship would "see" the same background and therefore would be VERY hard to distinguish a slight wavering in magnitude of the background that should be.

I have already written about parallax, but this text is talking about more than that. It is from chapter 9 of Mission of Honor and says:

Like any stealth system, it still had to deal with things like waste heat, for example. Current technology could recapture and use an enormous percentage of that heat, but not all of it, and what they couldn't capture still had to go somewhere. And, like other navies' stealth systems, the MAN's dealt with that by radiating that heat away from known enemy sensors. Modern stealth fields could do a lot to minimize even heat signatures, but nothing could completely eliminate them, and stealth fields themselves were detectable at extremely short ranges, so any ship remained vulnerable to detection by a sufficiently sensitive sensor on exactly the right (or wrong) bearing.

-- snip --

However difficult a sensor target they might be for Bogey Two's shipboard systems, the rules would change abruptly if the Grayson cruiser decided to deploy her own recon platforms. If she were to do that, and if the platforms got a good, close-range look at the aspect Apparition was keeping turned away from their mothership, the chance of detection went from abysmally low to terrifyingly high in very short order.

Admittedly the part you are taking about is covered by the statement "stealth fields themselves were detectable at extremely short ranges, so any ship remained vulnerable to detection by a sufficiently sensitive sensor on exactly the right (or wrong) bearing". However what concerned the Captain was the recon drones seeing the heat being radiated away from the ship on the side that was not displaying a cloaking image.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10816&hilit=Castling

In The Strategy of Castling thread I suggested that Darius would/could utilize the tactic of pulling their forts back and placing them around the planet; knowing the GA would not fire on these platforms considering their moral compass. It seems I was correct about that.

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On another front, I suggested the LDs will operate as a wolfpack, similar to the tactic used by the Germans in their submarine warfare.

The LDs will have to communicate in some form or fashion if they are to operate as a pack of wolves, as I posited they would do some time ago. In TEiF, whisker laser is used by Galton's drones to communicate with the OWPs. It is impossible to detect whisker laser unless a drone gets in the path of the signal.

One possibility open to the LDs is to utilize preprogrammed locations while defending Galton. That would enable the LDs to know where the others are located. Maneuvering would be accomplished by a single or more LDs while a single LD remains stationary. The stationary LD will then receive position updates of the other LDs then it can also move. Maneuvering via one LD at a time.



But alas, the GA introduced Bloodhounds into the mix. These are parasite drones that can be deployed by Ghostrider drones. It could be that the author does not intend for the GA to develop a spider drive detector and the GA will have to rely on other means of detection which would include triangulation of detected signals. That would make things interesting.

Or, rather, a great big hulking spider-drive detector may be tethered to the MBS, and other systems of the GA.

penny wrote:In The Strategy of Castling thread I suggested that Darius would/could utilize the tactic of pulling their forts back and placing them around the planet; knowing the GA would not fire on these platforms considering their moral compass.

Does Darius even have forts (except maybe at the wormhole)? From To End in Fire it seems that Darius will attempt to portray itself as the secretive, peaceful followers of the original Detweiler Plan; as opposed to those militant maniacs of Galton. So I presume that they would greet the Grand Alliance with flowers, instead of cannons; should the GA ever find a way to Darius.

But such a tactic would put the usage of any of the spider drive ships in question; unless another, more advanced, Galton is being set up somewhere to be the new source of attacks.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:In The Strategy of Castling thread I suggested that Darius would/could utilize the tactic of pulling their forts back and placing them around the planet; knowing the GA would not fire on these platforms considering their moral compass.

Does Darius even have forts (except maybe at the wormhole)? From To End in Fire it seems that Darius will attempt to portray itself as the secretive, peaceful followers of the original Detweiler Plan; as opposed to those militant maniacs of Galton. So I presume that they would greet the Grand Alliance with flowers, instead of cannons; should the GA ever find a way to Darius.

But such a tactic would put the usage of any of the spider drive ships in question; unless another, more advanced, Galton is being set up somewhere to be the new source of attacks.

The entire "no attacking a planet" was an Eridani Edict thing - which is no longer enforced, but now merely a moral compact.

However, the EE made the provision that military targets were susceptible if they were hiding behind civilian targets. Be it in orbit, or on a planet - if you are actively defending and opposing the invaders, you are a valid target. Previously, no one wanted the SLN to misconstrue such an action and bring punishment (due or not.), so they errored on the side of caution. Now, the SLN is out of the equation, and the Malign has proven that such tactics are not beneath them.

So why should Darius "Hiding" Forts near civilians populations deter the GA forces from attacking them? hint - it won't.

Theemile wrote:The entire "no attacking a planet" was an Eridani Edict thing - which is no longer enforced, but now merely a moral compact.

However, the EE made the provision that military targets were susceptible if they were hiding behind civilian targets. Be it in orbit, or on a planet - if you are actively defending and opposing the invaders, you are a valid target. Previously, no one wanted the SLN to misconstrue such an action and bring punishment (due or not.), so they errored on the side of caution. Now, the SLN is out of the equation, and the Malign has proven that such tactics are not beneath them.

So why should Darius "Hiding" Forts near civilians populations deter the GA forces from attacking them? hint - it won't.

The problem with that interpretation is that the GA is enforcing the Solarian's own law about an Eridani Edict violation against them. So it would be hypocritical for the GA to commit one themselves.

It is certainly true that hypocritical actions have been taken by nations, but we have no reason to believe that this particular type of action will be ever undertaken by the Grand Alliance. Just as they enforced the Cherwell Conventions, they have adhered to other international agreements because it fit with their image of the right thing for them to do. I realize that the Eridani Edict is not an international agreement, but it was part of their rules of conduct and I expect an intentional violation could lead to a court martial.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:The entire "no attacking a planet" was an Eridani Edict thing - which is no longer enforced, but now merely a moral compact.

However, the EE made the provision that military targets were susceptible if they were hiding behind civilian targets. Be it in orbit, or on a planet - if you are actively defending and opposing the invaders, you are a valid target. Previously, no one wanted the SLN to misconstrue such an action and bring punishment (due or not.), so they errored on the side of caution. Now, the SLN is out of the equation, and the Malign has proven that such tactics are not beneath them.

So why should Darius "Hiding" Forts near civilians populations deter the GA forces from attacking them? hint - it won't.

The problem with that interpretation is that the GA is enforcing the Solarian's own law about an Eridani Edict violation against them. So it would be hypocritical for the GA to commit one themselves.

It is certainly true that hypocritical actions have been taken by nations, but we have no reason to believe that this particular type of action will be ever undertaken by the Grand Alliance. Just as they enforced the Cherwell Conventions, they have adhered to other international agreements because it fit with their image of the right thing for them to do. I realize that the Eridani Edict is not an international agreement, but it was part of their rules of conduct and I expect an intentional violation could lead to a court martial.

But even assuming that the GA members have undertaken the mantle of arbiters of the Edict - it is not an edict violation if active, shooting combatants attempt to hide amongst civilian populations, So using a planet as a shield is just a tactical maneuver, not a "Time Out".

The fear that a distant faceless specter who may misconstrue your actions, and destroy your civilization over an errant missile no longer exists. Only tactics now rule.

The fact that the Malign has already amply demonstrated that they will not abide by the rules of war as far as civilian populations go, while it bears little weight here since we are discussing the letter of the rules of war, should remove any lingering reservations as far as morality goes.

Theemile wrote:But even assuming that the GA members have undertaken the mantle of arbiters of the Edict - it is not an edict violation if active, shooting combatants attempt to hide amongst civilian populations, So using a planet as a shield is just a tactical maneuver, not a "Time Out".

The fear that a distant faceless specter who may misconstrue your actions, and destroy your civilization over an errant missile no longer exists. Only tactics now rule.

The fact that the Malign has already amply demonstrated that they will not abide by the rules of war as far as civilian populations go, while it bears little weight here since we are discussing the letter of the rules of war, should remove any lingering reservations as far as morality goes.

I am not saying the the Grand Alliance has become an arbiter of the Edict, except in the case of prosecuting the Mandarins and some officers in the Solarian Navy for violations of their own laws; the same as Honor instituted on Cerebus for violations of their own laws by StateSec personnel. I am saying that the Grand Alliance has written into their own laws and code of conduct various prohibitions, including making it illegal for their personnel to commit what once would have been considered an EE violation.

It does not matter, for the purposes of GA conduct, what the Malign has done or might do in the future. Anyway, when approaching Darius will the GA even be sure that this is part of the Malign or is it another faction that has chosen to hide away or even another lost colony like Calvin's Hope? Once it is determined that the planet is hostile and the GA has control of the high orbitals, then they can make demands and attack military units on the ground.

tlb wrote:I am saying that the Grand Alliance has written into their own laws and code of conduct various prohibitions, including making it illegal for their personnel to commit what once would have been considered an EE violation.

But the question is what standard are they holding themselves to - and how high to they assess the risk of a stray missile or large scale debris?

Before the fall of the League the standard most governments seemed to hold their navies to is they shall undertake no action that could give OFS or the League any possible excuse to intervene against them under even the most wildly broad and expansive interpretation of the Edict.

Basically to assume the League is just itching for any excuse to take over -- and avoid any risk of giving them that excuse.

That's far more restrictive than just honoring the letter, or even the spirit, or the Edict.


Under the letter, and even the spirit, of the Edict using civilian populations in an attempt to provide human shields around military forces forfeits those civilian's protection under the Edict -- at least as far as collateral damage resulting from WMD attacks on those military forces. So, putting forts in low orbit around a planet in the hope of discouraging missiles from firing at them just means that the attacking force is no longer liable for collateral damage that might result from targeting and engaging those forts.

Now the GA might well hold themselves to an even higher standard of minimizing collateral civilian casualties. Though given the accuracy and range of Apollo they might also be able to engage low orbit forts with almost no concern about a stray missile hitting the planet (though debris from damaged forts might still be a concern)