Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine

https://www.politico.eu/article/recep-t ... embership/

With his latest declaration Erdogan has confirmed his allegiance to Putin’s Russia!
His demand that Finland and Sweden turn over a hundred political opponents to Turkey, is his tribute to Russia!
He knows full well that his demands can not be acceded to by the two Nordic countries, for the simple reason it would contravene their own legislation.
So his kibosh demands are simply a fig leaf he is using to hide his true allegiance!
The sad fact is that his intransigence means that these two nations; whose inclusion that could only benefit NATO will be denied acceptance!!!
Something that can only be interpreted as a win for Russia!
There’s a certain consensus among commentators that he is using his hardline to gain some cookie points with the Turkish electorate up to the Turkish General Election later this year. That he will relent and compromise, when the election is over.
Really???
Like his Master in the Kremlin, he has crawled out on a limb, and as an Autocrat he will have a hard time crawling back!
He has taken an old Star Trek meme; the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one, and turned it on its head, to become the Autocratic mantra:
The Wants of the One[i], outweighs the Needs of the Many!!!
[/i]

A few weeks ago the Turkish huckster Erdogan opened (probably instigated by his Kremlin handler) up for the possibility of agreeing to Finland joining NATO. But reiterated his objection to Sweden doing the same!
A blatant re-write of the old axiom: Divide and conquer to Divide and isolate!
Finland and Sweden made it quite clear it was both or nothing!
But now a new voice is trying to sow dissention in this pact! Surprise! Surprise it’s non-other than NATO’s Norwegian head Jens Stoltenberg! This shithead has just announced that NATO would be open to Finland joining NATO alone without Sweden.
Well duhhh…of course they would, but that is not the issue. Just think how this fucking statement will be received in Sweden! The head of NATO intimating that they might be left hanging alone! Sure, the Swedes have a number of bi-lateral treaties with friendly countries. But there is a carrying reason for countries to seek in under NATO’S umbrella: which is that for over seventy years this umbrella has worked!!!
He did temper his announcement with statement; with saying that the ultimate aim is that both the Nordic countries end up joining the alliance!
One can only hope that Finland will see this offer from both Erdogan and Stoltenberg, for what it is. An attempt to divide them from Sweden. Telling both of them: to stick their magnanimous offer up where the sun don’t shine!!!

https://www.ft.com/content/ebe83be4-369 ... dc15fcab21

Just a brief comment here...Erdrogen though a dictator still faces voters who thoroughly approve of him because he introduced Sharia into Turkey.
Some figure that he will let the matter drop until after the election

Don

Why is it so important that Finland and Sweden maintain their joint status? It was worth trying for a joint admission, but it seems like Finland staying out of NATO in a gesture of solidarity would be worthless to Sweden. From Sweden's perspective, Finland joining NATO by itself removes any non-NATO land routes to Sweden from Russia and makes the most direct sea&air route even trickier.

The geopolitical situation has changed since last year when the joint application was made in the early months of the invasion while half of the world's analysts were still confident that Russia would roll over Ukraine and still have enormous reserves to threaten the rest of Europe with by the end of 2022. By September 2022, Russia was buying ammo from North Korea and salvaging electronic components from household appliances to repair military equipment. Putin is desperately buying time for his horse to sing and we're all just waiting for him to die.

Sweden is in a viable position now to choose between continuing its historic neutrality(which provides Europe with useful diplomatic channels alongside the other historically neutral nations, Ireland and Switzerland) or continuing its NATO application. Finland is not in a comparable position due to 1300km of land border.

n7axw wrote:Just a brief comment here...Erdrogen though a dictator still faces voters who thoroughly approve of him because he introduced Sharia into Turkey.
Some figure that he will let the matter drop until after the election

Don

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politi ... s-meeting/

Turkey is now willing to talk with Sweden and Finland regarding their desire to join NATO. After months of repeated requests for a meeting, Turkey suddenly acquiesces, wonder why…?
US Secretary of State Blinken in a statement earlier this week reiterated the US's desire to see Finland and Sweden as members of the alliance.
Blinken and Turkeys Foreign minister were having a meeting regarding Turkeys desire to buy F.16's and modernization kits for their existing aircraft.
Now it was pointed out that the one thing had "absolutely" nothing to do with the other!!!!
(Nod, nod, wink, wink, Bob's yours’re Uncle!)
Or, it’s just that Erdogan has other more important things on his plate at this time!
Maybe so much more important, that stooging for Putin has been moved down the order of importance!

He was never stooging for Putin. Russia and Turkey are natural enemies who have clashed over Russian expansionism, at least twice that I can remember. I suspect that the early clashes were over religion with the rise of Islam in Turkey
and Christianity in Russia

Don

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n7axw wrote:He was never stooging for Putin. Russia and Turkey are natural enemies who have clashed over Russian expansionism, at least twice that I can remember. I suspect that the early clashes were over religion with the rise of Islam in Turkey
and Christianity in Russia

Don

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Looking aside from the historic aspect; hell, if that had a role to play, then there wouldn’t be any NATO!
There are nations in that alliance that have gone head-to- toe, in our lifetime; Turkey vs Greece, for not to mention Germany and Italy!
No, time has a habit of bringing “real politik” back into play.
When I consider Erdogan; at least, playing both ends against the middle it’s based on pretty relevant evidence.
Turkey is still receiving Russian oil and gas. There’s also an ongoing discussion between Russian and Turkey, about the possibility of Turkey becoming a hub for Russian oil/gas; replacing the rusting remains of the NordStream pipelines!
There’s also the military aspect, which came into focus when Turkey turned to Russia when they bought their S-400 surface-to-air missile system.
Then when the US Congress took exception to this, and had them removed from receiving F-35’s, at the same time blocking for sale of F-16’s. Maybe to get them to figure out which side of the fence to jump!
Turkey might have an answer to this: buy Russian fighters!
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3213 ... ter-russia

Arol wrote:

n7axw wrote:He was never stooging for Putin. Russia and Turkey are natural enemies who have clashed over Russian expansionism, at least twice that I can remember. I suspect that the early clashes were over religion with the rise of Islam in Turkey
and Christianity in Russia

Don

_

Looking aside from the historic aspect; hell, if that had a role to play, then there wouldn’t be any NATO!
There are nations in that alliance that have gone head-to- toe, in our lifetime; Turkey vs Greece, for not to mention Germany and Italy!
No, time has a habit of bringing “real politik” back into play.
When I consider Erdogan; at least, playing both ends against the middle it’s based on pretty relevant evidence.
Turkey is still receiving Russian oil and gas. There’s also an ongoing discussion between Russian and Turkey, about the possibility of Turkey becoming a hub for Russian oil/gas; replacing the rusting remains of the NordStream pipelines!
There’s also the military aspect, which came into focus when Turkey turned to Russia when they bought their S-400 surface-to-air missile system.
Then when the US Congress took exception to this, and had them removed from receiving F-35’s, at the same time blocking for sale of F-16’s. Maybe to get them to figure out which side of the fence to jump!
Turkey might have an answer to this: buy Russian fighters!
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3213 ... ter-russia

On the other hand, they have opened the Dardenelles(sp).
They looks to me like they are trying to set them themselves up to play a mediating role at the end of the war.

Don


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n7axw wrote:
On the other hand, they have opened the Dardenelles(sp).
They looks to me like they are trying to set them themselves up to play a mediating role at the end of the war.

Don


_

I guess that at some point a mediator will be needed!
Personally I don’t foresee the need for one, until one of the sides has been bloodied enough to agree to sit down without pre-conditions.
A time at which someone with a leg in both camps might come in handy!
But who’s to say that the someone might be Erdogan?
He’s got an iffy election coming up in in mid May.
With the families, friends and relatives of 80,000 dead earthquake victims, together with the tenants of over 150,000 destroyed housing and places of business, all looking for someone to scapegoat!

Arol wrote:

n7axw wrote:
On the other hand, they have opened the Dardenelles(sp).
They looks to me like they are trying to set them themselves up to play a mediating role at the end of the war.

Don


_

I guess that at some point a mediator will be needed!
Personally I don’t foresee the need for one, until one of the sides has been bloodied enough to agree to sit down without pre-conditions.
A time at which someone with a leg in both camps might come in handy!
But who’s to say that the someone might be Erdogan?
He’s got an iffy election coming up in in mid May.
With the families, friends and relatives of 80,000 dead earthquake victims, together with the tenants of over 150,000 destroyed housing and places of business, all looking for someone to scapegoat!

Good point If politicians want the credit when things go wrong it is only fair that they get the credit when things go wrong. Don't expect the result to be an improvement however.

Don

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