Wormhole Assault: MA Style

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That depends on how far from attack that bowshock is detected. Even a peace time Navy can go to battlestations and raise interposing wedges (if they're on standby) in a few minutes.

BTW, attacking the MBS reminds me to compare the performance of the Oyster Bay weapons to the Hastas at Galton: in one of those, no bowshocks were detected. So either they were at such lower speeds that their bowshocks weren't detectable or the technology was meaningfully different to permit that. I think it's the former: the torpedoes and missile pods were sufficiently slowed to not show up in sensors.

But if it is the latter, then it's yet another point where Galton didn't have the technology that was used to attack the MBS and Grayson.

cthia wrote:That is not what I meant. I am positing that during peacetime only passive scans are being carried out. I don't think passive scans will detect a bowshock at all. I am talking about Oyster-Bay-like results.

Why would you posit that? A bow-shock is energetic, so can be seen in both optical and radio wavelengths. That is what drew attention at Galton; if it had been an active scan, then the bow-shock was not necessary to the discovery.

Anyway, I expect active scans ARE done in peacetime to protect against large meteorites or debris hitting stations or planets.

Pardon my bold.

I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the MA's stealth is useless in the glare of floodlights? Active scans will definitely detect an LD or stealthy missiles even w/o a bowshock?

tlb wrote:Why would you posit that? A bow-shock is energetic, so can be seen in both optical and radio wavelengths. That is what drew attention at Galton; if it had been an active scan, then the bow-shock was not necessary to the discovery.

Anyway, I expect active scans ARE done in peacetime to protect against large meteorites or debris hitting stations or planets.

cthia wrote:Pardon my bold.
I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the MA's stealth is useless in the glare of floodlights? Active scans will definitely detect an LD or stealthy missiles even w/o a bowshock?

Not at all, however the Galton drones were detected by Honor's forces without any problem. So it would seem that an active scan could have pinpointed the weapons, whether or not there existed a bow-shock.

Instead I was trying to point out that the Ghostrider drones, which gave first notice of the incoming weapons with the bow-shock waves, do not use active scans; because active scans broadcast their position. So either the drones spotted the incoming pods using electromagnetic detection of the bow-shock or the pods' stealthy drives were detected. My guess is the energetic bow-shock was detected, otherwise why did RFC include it?

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Why would you posit that? A bow-shock is energetic, so can be seen in both optical and radio wavelengths. That is what drew attention at Galton; if it had been an active scan, then the bow-shock was not necessary to the discovery.

Anyway, I expect active scans ARE done in peacetime to protect against large meteorites or debris hitting stations or planets.

cthia wrote:Pardon my bold.
I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the MA's stealth is useless in the glare of floodlights? Active scans will definitely detect an LD or stealthy missiles even w/o a bowshock?

Not at all, however the Galton drones were detected by Honor's forces without any problem. So it would seem that an active scan could have pinpointed the weapons, whether or not there existed a bow-shock.

Instead I was trying to point out that the Ghostrider drones, which gave first notice of the incoming weapons with the bow-shock waves, do not use active scans; because active scans broadcast their position. So either the drones spotted the incoming pods using electromagnetic detection of the bow-shock or the pods' stealthy drives were detected. My guess is the energetic bow-shock was detected, otherwise why did RFC include it?

Again, they were at battle stations, and Honor did everything she could to detect any and everything that she could. That included launching Ghostrider drones. I have no problem with Ghostrider detecting the bowshock. Ghostrider was blanketing the area and sampling a lot of data. Cool.

But my original point is that in peacetime the MBS would not be at Defcon. Ghostrider drones will not be swarming all around the system, and active scans would be the exception and not the rule.

Does Jayne give the effective range of active scans? The fact that GR detected the bowshock could be putting a finger on the limitation of active scans and, which, again, in peacetime the MA might not have to worry about a bowshock being detected. At least not in time.

cthia wrote:Does Jayne give the effective range of active scans? The fact that GR detected the bowshock could be putting a finger on the limitation of active scans and, which, again, in peacetime the MA might not have to worry about a bowshock being detected. At least not in time.

TEiF gives us the speed those Hastas were travelling at and roughly how long it took for them to impact. So we know how far they were.

However, Ghost Riders doing passive scans cannot give us a limitation of active scans, since they weren't doing that.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Does Jayne give the effective range of active scans? The fact that GR detected the bowshock could be putting a finger on the limitation of active scans and, which, again, in peacetime the MA might not have to worry about a bowshock being detected. At least not in time.

TEiF gives us the speed those Hastas were travelling at and roughly how long it took for them to impact. So we know how far they were.

However, Ghost Riders doing passive scans cannot give us a limitation of active scans, since they weren't doing that.

Limitation by implication. The GA certainly activated active scans and were flooding the system with beams. The fact that it was the GR drones that detected the bowshock and not the active scans drives the implication.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:TEiF gives us the speed those Hastas were travelling at and roughly how long it took for them to impact. So we know how far they were.

However, Ghost Riders doing passive scans cannot give us a limitation of active scans, since they weren't doing that.

cthia wrote:Limitation by implication. The GA certainly activated active scans and were flooding the system with beams. The fact that it was the GR drones that detected the bowshock and not the active scans drives the implication.

To End in Fire says the Ghostriders detected the missiles because of the "bow wave of charged particles riding with it". Honor's ships can see them when they are about 3 minutes out and doing .42c. The book says the range then is 22.8 million kilometers.

That does not necessarily mean that is the outer limit of detection, because Honor's ships might not have been concentrating in that direction; but that does give a lower limit.

PS: It is NOT the case that "active scans would be the exception and not the rule" in peacetime. The most that can be said is that full military power scans are "exception and not the rule" then, because of the continuing need for traffic control and protection from debris or meteorites.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Limitation by implication. The GA certainly activated active scans and were flooding the system with beams. The fact that it was the GR drones that detected the bowshock and not the active scans drives the implication.

To End in Fire says the Ghostriders detected the missiles because of the "bow wave of charged particles riding with it". Honor's ships can see them when they are about 3 minutes out and doing .42c. The book says the range then is 22.8 million kilometers.

That does not necessarily mean that is the outer limit of detection, because Honor's ships might not have been concentrating in that direction; but that does give a lower limit.

Fair enough. The Hastas had not (yet) been detected by the active scans at 22.5 million km out, for a reason. It's possible that's beyond the active detection range against a Hasta.

Every stealth can be broken with sufficient power. Since return signal power is related to distance, stealth can be broken when the distance is sufficiently close. So we can conclude that the Hastas were stealthy at 22.5 million km, against whatever active scanning technique Honor's fleet was using at the time.

But what this also told us is that the bowshock at that speed and distance (and possibly elapsed time travelled too, because I expect the bowshock to have a cumulative effect) negated that stealth ahead of time. It gave Honor sufficient time to mitigate the attack, something the Galton attackers did not want, so most likely did not anticipate either. Since that was done with passive scans, it only depends on the sensitivity of those scanners.

We don't expect the RMN to be running shoals of Ghost Riders in their own system during peace time. But we do expect them to have even more sensitive sensing equipment in those systems, units that aren't mobile. They have far more time to deploy and calibrate them, for one thing.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Fair enough. The Hastas had not (yet) been detected by the active scans at 22.5 million km out, for a reason. It's possible that's beyond the active detection range against a Hasta.

You misread me, after they were pointed out, Honor's ships could see them at 22.8 million kilometers. That does not necessarily mean that they were invisible before, because they were coming in on a new threat direction.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Fair enough. The Hastas had not (yet) been detected by the active scans at 22.5 million km out, for a reason. It's possible that's beyond the active detection range against a Hasta.

You misread me, after they were pointed out, Honor's ships could see them at 22.8 million kilometers. That does not necessarily mean that they were invisible before, because they were coming in on a new threat direction.

Of course Honor's ships could see them after GR detected them.

Because by then GR is sending Honor's fleet the 'video'.

For all intents and purposes, the Hastas were invisible to the fleet if the fleet did not see them.

Besides, if you are correct about the elusive threat vector, then you have put another finger on a limitation of active scans. Scans have to be directed, as was evident in Abigail Hearn's orders to her crew in the War Games to "direct your search in this area right ... here." Which adds to mounting evidence towards my notion that in peacetime a bowshock might not be detected.

Space is huge, mind boggling and scan boggling huge. The LD's will not be attacking on a bearing that is to be expected. A bowshock won't be detected. As far as active scans, there seems to be both a limitation of range and a limitation in the need to be directed. And the need to be directed insinuates a need to be lucky. At Galton the GA knew to be looking for a threat from the inner system. The GA won't be looking for an attack from their own inner system. Even the sensors from forts and platforms have to be directed. They have to be looking in that direction.

Thus the notion, "flying below the radar."

The notion is the wind beneath the wings of the F-18 Hornets in the exciting new sequel Top Gun: Maverick

tlb wrote:You misread me, after they were pointed out, Honor's ships could see them at 22.8 million kilometers. That does not necessarily mean that they were invisible before, because they were coming in on a new threat direction.

cthia wrote:Of course Honor's ships could see them after GR detected them.

Because by then GR is sending Honor's fleet the 'video'.

For all intents and purposes, the Hastas were invisible to the fleet if the fleet did not see them.

Besides, if you are correct about the elusive threat vector, then you have put another finger on a limitation of active scans. Scans have to be directed, as was evident in Abigail Hearn's orders to her crew in the War Games to "direct your search in this area right ... here."

No, because the Ghostrider gave them WHERE to look. Anything is "invisible", if you do not look where it is. Certainly active scans are NOT omnidirectional, that is why the Ghostriders were sent out in all directions.

Galton did not have stealth technology that is totally invisible, Honor's fleet saw the stealthiest drones that were coming at them from the forts. For all we know Galton had all of Darius's stealth, EXCEPT for the spider drive (there is no reason for the Malign to hold anything else back).