Pod layers.

kzt wrote:The compensator field extends some distance from the hull. Far enough on a RMN SD that you can stack layers of pods without having the top ones torn apart by acceleration. You could velcro pods to to hull instead of using tractors, because they are in free fall.

So yes, you can pull the LACs onto the flat areas of the hull where they would stack pods and it's fine for a short trip. In theory you could weld the LAC to the SD (and you don't need a very stong weld as it will be in free fall the whole time) and send the crew inside and keep the LAC, but past a few LACs (or pods) the SDs combat capability rapidly drops.

The Masadan LACs, by definition as manned craft, had to maintain structural integrity. Which is why one was a complete write-off when an air tank tore loose and ripped hell through the ship. Even in an emergency evacuation, you don't want to risk trying to tractor a LAC (and its crew still aboard) only to end the micro-jump and find out the crew are now paste on walls. Saving the ship and risking the crew being killed mostly defeats the point of an emergency micro-jump.

Pods seem to be, more or less, solid state systems with little to no moving parts discounting the missiles themselves. So they'd stay pretty much intact and attached to the ship with or without compensation thanks to their onboard tractors holding them attached. Even layered limpet mines, consider the size difference between a pod and a LAC. Masadan LACs must be pretty sizeable, so they must be 50m wide or larger (much like a Shrike), and a pod is more like 10 meter length due to Manticoran capital missile length. I don't think anybody, at any time, has ever covered any Manty ship with so many flatpack/limpet pods they were five pods deep. It's also hard to compare the two situations, when we don't know where the Masadan LAC air tank was originally mounted relative to Thunder's hull.

Then there's the little issue that due to pods being both unmanned, and carted around in such high quantity? Even if a few did get subjected to high-g acceleration and tore vital components, it wouldn't impact the story in the slightest for mentioning one/some had become damaged and fallen off or been jettisoned. It would be needless wordcount padding at best to mention their failures, so they aren't and that can be interpreted in many ways.

Jonathan_S wrote:So instead the fleet would retreat, as a body with its LAC screen, across the hyper limit and then, between incoming salvos, the LACs would quickly tractor on to the biggest of the surviving ships and everybody would hyper out. Once safely in hyper you can send a destroyer to go summon the CLACs from their safe location to rendezvous and properly board the LACs.

Hopefully there's time for that. We don't know what the time between salvos of the enemy you didn't defeat is or how thick it is. Or just how far they are in pursuit.

If there isn't time, the LACs would probably drop wedges and the crew go to escape pods, instead of endangering the SDs with the need to drop defences down sufficiently for the LACs to tractor.

Though once you cross the hyperwall (or cross it a few times), the LACs can detach and proceed on their own under wedge power, provided that this is not in a grav wave. Then the entire formation can accelerate to usual levels, which will probably be lower than the max because if this was necessary, it's likely some ships took damage too.

Somtaaw wrote:Even if a few did get subjected to high-g acceleration and tore vital components, it wouldn't impact the story in the slightest for mentioning one/some had become damaged and fallen off or been jettisoned. It would be needless wordcount padding at best to mention their failures, so they aren't and that can be interpreted in many ways.

The multi-megaton explosion as the reactor fails in the pod being torn apart, followed milliseconds later by every other pod reactor failing in separate multi-megaton explosions covering the entire surface of the SD, is probably going to spoil your entire weekend.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:This isn't expected to be used much - it's the emergency evac protocol - either the CLAC is busy at another in-system rendezvous point grabbing LACS or has been destroyed and you are just trying to get everything out of the system ASAP.

Combat is a tertiary concept at moments like these, the LACs are supposed to go to a "secure" rendevous point in systems for the extraction. Then, it's jump the big ships in - have all the LACs tractor themselves to the evac ships, and jump out 10ish minutes later when the Hyper generator is completed cycling. Then figure out WTF you are going to do next when you see what shows up at the rendezvous point.

I would assume you can do this with Fleet Train units (ammo ships, supply ships, FSVs and the rest) but that would assume that the raid completely went sideways, insufficient heavy combatants remain, and those ships are the only remaining way to extract the LACs. Very suboptimal, but sometimes the needs drive.

I had the impression it would more likely to be used in a situation where the CLACs had detached their brood to screen a raiding fleet (a standard tactic), and now the fleet is retreating under fire. It's not safe to bring the CLACs back in and land all the LACs -- not while the fleet is still taking fire.

So instead the fleet would retreat, as a body with its LAC screen, across the hyper limit and then, between incoming salvos, the LACs would quickly tractor on to the biggest of the surviving ships and everybody would hyper out. Once safely in hyper you can send a destroyer to go summon the CLACs from their safe location to rendezvous and properly board the LACs.

So another use case.

My point was that this wasn't an every day plan; ideally CLACs would recover their brood in a safe environment and not worry about enemy fire or time limitations. This is that type of planning akin to carrying a bungie cord in your trunk - at some time in the future you might be forced to haul something oversized which won't allow the trunk to completely close.

It's planning for the unexpected, but possible outcomes. Not a routine done on a daily basis.

kzt wrote:I'd agree. Hyper nav is not precise. Plus or minus a few million KM is kind of a problem when you have to do a rendezvous under fire with probably no more than a few hundred meters/sec delta.

Yep. Screw that up and your lightly escorted CLACs are under fire but outside the defensive envelope of the rest of your fleet. Oops.

Plus even if they pull it over perfectly and your fleet can cover them, waiting for their hyper generators to recover before you can leave subjects the entire fleet to more time under fire.


In a retreat under fire situation better to get out quick and dirty and worry about hooking up with the CLACs and squaring away their LAC broods later.

Jonathan_S wrote:In a retreat under fire situation better to get out quick and dirty and worry about hooking up with the CLACs and squaring away their LAC broods later.

Well, the LACs have enough power to head for the nearest friendly system. Not sure how many nines they need to make it there alive, but I suspect they could (baring some unfortunate collision with a piece of interstellar debris).

And in the honorverse everyone they know would still probably be alive.

kzt wrote:Well, the LACs have enough power to head for the nearest friendly system. Not sure how many nines they need to make it there alive, but I suspect they could (baring some unfortunate collision with a piece of interstellar debris).

And in the honorverse everyone they know would still probably be alive.

LACs don't have Alpha nodes or hyper generators. They are strictly sunlight craft. They might have supplies for a couple of weeks, not years.

Fox2! wrote:

kzt wrote:Well, the LACs have enough power to head for the nearest friendly system. Not sure how many nines they need to make it there alive, but I suspect they could (baring some unfortunate collision with a piece of interstellar debris).

And in the honorverse everyone they know would still probably be alive.

LACs don't have Alpha nodes or hyper generators. They are strictly sunlight craft. They might have supplies for a couple of weeks, not years.

And ships have a (particle shielding) limited top speed in normal space of 0.8c. Going just 5 LY to maybe the closest star is going to take them 6.25 years, and relativity is only going to lop 40% off that subjectively -- so they'll still experience 3.75 years.

Hence why getting out quick and dirty involves tractoring themselves to larger starships that are hypering out -- and not making a normal space run for the nearest star :rollseyes:

Jonathan_S wrote:And ships have a (particle shielding) limited top speed in normal space of 0.8c. Going just 5 LY to maybe the closest star is going to take them 6.25 years, and relativity is only going to lop 40% off that subjectively -- so they'll still experience 3.75 years.

Hence why getting out quick and dirty involves tractoring themselves to larger starships that are hypering out -- and not making a normal space run for the nearest star :rollseyes:

To reach a time dilation factor so the trip lasts only 4 weeks (exactly 28 days), you need a γ = 65.223, which gives you a β = 0.99988. They'd need to make the trip last at least 250 days subjective for their n-space velocity to drop below 0.99c. Given what we know of particle shielding in the HV, that's not possible.

However, if someone transits them to alpha, they can make the trip, with some rationing. At 62x, a hyperspace trip in alpha at 0.8c would have a pseudo-velocity of 49.6c, so a 5-light-year trip would complete in a tenth of a year, or just under 37 days. But this is not a realistic scenario either: first, if there's someone to hyper them into alpha, they could hyper them to upper bands too. Second, if there's a hypercapable ship there, the LAC crews could transfer into that ship for the trip back to a secure base, whether they have to abandon their LACs or just limpet to the hull or not. Third, there's no reason the RV point needs to be 5 light-years away: the expecting CLAC can simply wait at an arbitrary point a much shorter distance away.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:However, if someone transits them to alpha, they can make the trip, with some rationing. At 62x, a hyperspace trip in alpha at 0.8c would have a pseudo-velocity of 49.6c, so a 5-light-year trip would complete in a tenth of a year, or just under 37 days. But this is not a realistic scenario either: first, if there's someone to hyper them into alpha, they could hyper them to upper bands too. Second, if there's a hypercapable ship there, the LAC crews could transfer into that ship for the trip back to a secure base, whether they have to abandon their LACs or just limpet to the hull or not. Third, there's no reason the RV point needs to be 5 light-years away: the expecting CLAC can simply wait at an arbitrary point a much shorter distance away.

Exactly. Heck, they could just be hanging out in hyper waiting for the recall to pick up their LACs -- so an emergency retreat into hyper might very quickly link back up with the CLACs.

Even if you dropped them into normal space to wait you don't need to be that far. Though I'd suspect they'd want to be beyond the range of the target system's sensor arrays. (If the system saw the CLACs drop out, say, 1 light week away there's a risk that they might be able to detach some forces to try to attack the weakly defended CLACs. (After all, a BC squadron probably won't change the balance of forces against most heavy raids -- but it could be enough to tear up some detached CLACs who are IIRC normally just escorted by a few DDs)
So seems better to move a bit further out so the target system won't know where you're waiting.