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Indecision 19XX PD

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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:25 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Shannon_Foraker wrote:I thought there was some maybe later canon reference to people being limited to 15 years (maybe confusing it with some fan idea from somewhere)?


There is some text in UH (I think) saying she's limited to 3 terms. This is Queen Elizabeth lamenting because she gets so well with Pritchart.

That would make sense.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:19 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Shannon_Foraker wrote:I thought there was some maybe later canon reference to people being limited to 15 years (maybe confusing it with some fan idea from somewhere)?


There is some text in UH (I think) saying she's limited to 3 terms. This is Queen Elizabeth lamenting because she gets so well with Pritchart.


It's in the March 1923 PD chapter of _Uncompromising Honor_:

“Unfortunately, she won’t be in office forever. In fact, the Havenite Constitution limits her to no more than three successive terms.” The empress grimaced. “I think that needs to be changed, and I think some of the Constitution’s other term-limit aspects—especially the clause limiting a president’s term to only five T-years—reflects pre-prolong thinking.”
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by drothgery   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:52 pm

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Shannon_Foraker wrote:
drothgery wrote:Having no textev one way or another, it's hard to say. I'd be shocked if Haven doesn't have term limits, at least to the minimal degree of a maximum number of consecutive presidential terms, because given real world voter behavior and prolong, no term limits is a recipe for nearly zero turnover in government.

I thought there was some maybe later canon reference to people being limited to 15 years (maybe confusing it with some fan idea from somewhere)?

Yup, but that hadn't been written in 2014 when the post of mine you're quoting is from (when I was still a single guy with no life instead of married with a small child) ...
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by tlb   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:00 pm

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drothgery wrote:Having no textev one way or another, it's hard to say. I'd be shocked if Haven doesn't have term limits, at least to the minimal degree of a maximum number of consecutive presidential terms, because given real world voter behavior and prolong, no term limits is a recipe for nearly zero turnover in government.

Shannon_Foraker wrote:I thought there was some maybe later canon reference to people being limited to 15 years (maybe confusing it with some fan idea from somewhere)?

drothgery wrote:Yup, but that hadn't been written in 2014 when the post of mine you're quoting is from (when I was still a single guy with no life instead of married with a small child) ...

Well, congratulations on both the marriage with child and being proved correct that Haven does have term limits.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by kzt   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:33 pm

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Senior Chief wrote:[
Hmmmm how about Victor Cashat... I think he would really shake up the political structure of Haven.

You mean like the last mid-ranking intel agent did in the teal world? That would be Vladimir Putin. Who really shook up the political system.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by phillies   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:06 pm

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kzt wrote:
Senior Chief wrote:[
Hmmmm how about Victor Cashat... I think he would really shake up the political structure of Haven.

You mean like the last mid-ranking intel agent did in the teal world? That would be Vladimir Putin. Who really shook up the political system.


No, he shook down the system, for everything it had. And then some.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by phillies   » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:08 pm

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Dafmeister wrote:On a related note, Tom Thiessman's been SecWar and CNO combined since the Republic was restored. The impression I've always had is that this was always intended as a temporary measure, a constitutional aberration that was necessary during the rebuilding and reform process. This means that sooner or later the jobs will be split again.

Do you think that there will be a simultaneous replacement of Thiessman in both roles, or will he relinquish one and remain in the other? Personally, I think he'll remain as SecWar (he's to influential not to remain in the cabinet) and appoint a CNO.

If that's the case, any thoughts on who the new CNO would be? My memory for 'second-tier' characters is poor, so I can only think of three candidates that we know of:

1) Lester Tourville - only if it turns out that Thiessman secretly hates him. Lester's a fighting admiral to his boots, taking him off his flag deck would hurt him deeply.

2) Shannon Foraker - I don't think she has the strategic experience for the job, and she won't be getting it for the next few years as she's running the Mad Wizards' Workshop with Sonja Hemphill.

3) Oliver Diamato - He'd need some strategic seasoning, but I think he could do the job. The question is, can the Rpublic spare a proven combat commander of his calibre at this point?


For what does Haven need combat commanders? A major task of the CNO should be minding demobilization. After all, the Mesan Alignment has so far as anyone can tell been destroyed, Terra lies prostrate, and no one wants a war with Manticore.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:18 am

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I am from Germany.

We had chancellor Helmut Kohl for 16 years, chancellor Angela Merkel for even longer.

We see it with some Presidents/Dictators: Even if they started to change the contry for better, after some time, thay only keep the show running, but don´t change anything big anymore.

So, a restriction how long a Leader can rule make sense.

Prolong on the other hand keep you longer in prime contition, so you have longer the physical strenght for your job. On the other hand politics are mentally exhausting.

I think even with prolong, Prichard can´t do the job forever.

Like I said: after some time you only interact with your people in the gouverment, you lose the contact to your citizen and that leads to politicts only benefitical to the ones you interact with, but not to the people on the street.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by tlb   » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:47 am

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Maldorian wrote:I am from Germany.

We had chancellor Helmut Kohl for 16 years, chancellor Angela Merkel for even longer.

We see it with some Presidents/Dictators: Even if they started to change the contry for better, after some time, thay only keep the show running, but don´t change anything big anymore.

So, a restriction how long a Leader can rule make sense.

Prolong on the other hand keep you longer in prime contition, so you have longer the physical strenght for your job. On the other hand politics are mentally exhausting.

I think even with prolong, Prichard can´t do the job forever.

Like I said: after some time you only interact with your people in the gouverment, you lose the contact to your citizen and that leads to politicts only benefitical to the ones you interact with, but not to the people on the street.

The same thing was shown by the prewar SLN, which did not rotate their leaders (unlike Manticore). The result was to govern the SLN the way it had always been and not messing it up with new thinking and innovations.
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Re: Indecision 19XX PD
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:37 pm

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Maldorian wrote:I am from Germany.

We had chancellor Helmut Kohl for 16 years, chancellor Angela Merkel for even longer.

We see it with some Presidents/Dictators: Even if they started to change the contry for better, after some time, thay only keep the show running, but don´t change anything big anymore.

So, a restriction how long a Leader can rule make sense.

Prolong on the other hand keep you longer in prime contition, so you have longer the physical strenght for your job. On the other hand politics are mentally exhausting.

I think even with prolong, Prichard can´t do the job forever.

Like I said: after some time you only interact with your people in the gouverment, you lose the contact to your citizen and that leads to politicts only benefitical to the ones you interact with, but not to the people on the street.

I'd also point out that Pritchart is, in part, dealing with month+ long communication loops. So while she can govern the planet Haven itself with the speed we're used to, attempts to deal with the further flung portions of the nation just take more time. To some extent you deal with that by delegating power to people you can trust who can go there and react without that long communication loop -- but if they need resources from home or something has to go through you (or congress) you're still facing those delays.

That might also be an argument, given prolong, of pushing the term limit on Haven from 15 to maybe 30 years.

OTOH, whatever the practical realities, I suspect the Pritchart views establishing the precedent of sticking with the old constitution as far more important that whatever she might personally be able to accomplish if given an extra 15 years in office. So I suspect she'd squash any attempts to amend their newly restored constitution to adjust term limits while she's in office.
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