?

So no one here actually understands how a gravity field affect objects entering it?

Especially when the gradient is extremely steep?

Joat42 wrote:So no one here actually understands how a gravity field affect objects entering it?

Especially when the gradient is extremely steep?

It seems safe to say that there are various opinions. I have given text for the result of a low velocity object entering a focused gravity wall. Based on that, I do not understand why some people believe what they write.

Joat42 wrote:Especially when the gradient is extremely steep?

The scientific term for that is "spaghettification."

And the phase depths of a neutron star crust are called: gnocchi phase, spaghetti phase, lasagna phase, anti-spaghetti, and anti-gnocchi phase. One can wonder if they shouldn't name things while hungry...

Loren Pechtel wrote:

tlb wrote:This is from TV Tropes:>>>
The novel uses Fasset Drives — that is, a ship generates an artificial black hole that draws the ship toward it. At the same time, the black hole moves away from the ship since the ship is generating the thing. This leads to unlimited acceleration. When the ship hits 1.0c, something technobabbly happens and the ship enters wormhole space, where it can go much faster than should be possible (to the tune of several thousand times the speed of light).
<<<<

TV Tropes has a lot of errors.

I'm remembering the drone having to reach .9c to wormhole.

Seems to be 0.99c for both drones and ships - here's a bit I found in the extended 'In Fury Born'

In Fury Born wrote:The drone was up to ninety percent of light-speed now; their signal had barely three minutes to catch it before it wormholed

In Fury Born wrote:the ship his the critical threshold of ninety-nine percent of light-speed and vanished in the kaleidoscope flash of wormhole transition

tlb wrote:This is from TV Tropes:>>>
The novel uses Fasset Drives — that is, a ship generates an artificial black hole that draws the ship toward it. At the same time, the black hole moves away from the ship since the ship is generating the thing. This leads to unlimited acceleration. When the ship hits 1.0c, something technobabbly happens and the ship enters wormhole space, where it can go much faster than should be possible (to the tune of several thousand times the speed of light).
<<<<

Loren Pechtel wrote:TV Tropes has a lot of errors.

I'm remembering the drone having to reach .9c to wormhole.

Jonathan_S wrote:Seems to be 0.99c for both drones and ships - here's a bit I found in the extended 'In Fury Born'

In Fury Born wrote:The drone was up to ninety percent of light-speed now; their signal had barely three minutes to catch it before it wormholed

In Fury Born wrote:the ship hits the critical threshold of ninety-nine percent of light-speed and vanished in the kaleidoscope flash of wormhole transition

Thank you, that actually puts TV Tropes closer to correct; but it is easy to see why Loren Pechtel's memory was of 0.9c.

But does anyone know what the original Path of the Fury said? Was it the same?

Spoiler Alert for the Fury series: It turns out that the Mission of Honor CD has both revised Fury stories. But having read the original, I am not sure I want to read the new ones. My problem is that I know the critical point (which is at the beginning of the original).
It is when she should not have survived a pirate attack that kills the rest of her family.

Joat42 wrote:Sidewalls can be penetrated by grasers, of course you'll get secondary effects that bleed through from relativistic missiles - I haven't said otherwise. Whether such a missile can penetrate a wedge is unclear because all textev refer to wedges as "impregnable".

What I've pointed out is that a relativistic object doesn't give up it's kinetic energy in an explosion when it intersects a wedge or sidewall, the gravitic distortion will just change the trajectory of it's constituent atoms as it enters the field.

Sidewalls and wedges are different cases. Wedges seem to be able to stand up to anything other than other wedges. I don't think there's any meaningful attack through them, you can only go around.

Sidewalls, however, I do not believe can stop an ultrarelativistic missile. Even if you successfully deflect the matter they're not going to stop the energy.

cthia wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:Actually, it doesn't matter if the sidewall deflects the missile. Deflect an ultrarelatavistic missile and it's energy is going to appear as some very hot gamma rays--and they'll be heading on the path the missile was on. The target dies anyway.

It is not going to deflect that much kinetic energy. Again, Kitt and Goliath.

Ugh! Now I have the movie Unstoppable stuck in my mind. "Gavin, your derailer is not going to work. There is entirely too much train traveling way too fast."

The train disintegrated the derailer. Bullets are deflected by bullet proof glass, unless the round can pierce the glass because it is an armor piercing round.

The ship's "derailer" will not work against a near-infinite mass armor piercing projectile. Even with an abundant supply of handwavium.

That's my thought, also. I'm simply saying that even if it does deflect the missile that doesn't save what's behind the sidewall--deflecting that matter will cause it to dump it's energy in synchrotron radiation. Gammas are attenuated by the sidewall, not stopped--and one ultrarelativistic missile carries far more energy than every beam from the whole magazine of a podnaught.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:TV Tropes has a lot of errors.

I'm remembering the drone having to reach .9c to wormhole.

Seems to be 0.99c for both drones and ships - here's a bit I found in the extended 'In Fury Born'

In Fury Born wrote:The drone was up to ninety percent of light-speed now; their signal had barely three minutes to catch it before it wormholed

In Fury Born wrote:the ship his the critical threshold of ninety-nine percent of light-speed and vanished in the kaleidoscope flash of wormhole transition

Yup, that's the bit that came to mind and I'll concede that it's .99c rather than .9c. It still isn't lightspeed and the wormhole isn't simply the Fasset drive. They use the Fasset drive to get up to the speed needed for the wormhole drive.

Loren Pechtel wrote:That's my thought, also. I'm simply saying that even if it does deflect the missile that doesn't save what's behind the sidewall--deflecting that matter will cause it to dump it's energy in synchrotron radiation. Gammas are attenuated by the sidewall, not stopped--and one ultrarelativistic missile carries far more energy than every beam from the whole magazine of a podnaught.

You are all confusing acceleration/deacceleration as per Newtonian physics with how gravity affects an object's acceleration/deacceleration from an outside observer's perspective. From an object's internal perspective, being in a high gravity field is exactly the same as being in zero gravity.

Synchrotron radiation only occurs when a fast traveling charged particle is subjected to strong magnetic or electric fields - see Larmor's formula. A particle only affected by strong gravitational fields does not produce synchrotron radiation, it only changes it's speed and direction.

An object passing through a high gradient gravity field will be ripped apart, if the gradient is steep enough you will get secondary effects due to internal friction when atoms accelerates faster than its surrounding companions plus you have atomic bonds being broken which also tend to release energy. At no point does this release the latent kinetic energy of the object. If it did, any object passing through a gravitational field must give up it's latent kinetic energy in some fashion - like for example it gets hotter or it starts emitting spurious radiation, which would essentially make spaceships an impossible proposition.

Joat42 wrote:An object passing through a high gradient gravity field will be ripped apart, if the gradient is steep enough you will get secondary effects due to internal friction when atoms accelerates faster than its surrounding companions plus you have atomic bonds being broken which also tend to release energy. At no point does this release the latent kinetic energy of the object. If it did, any object passing through a gravitational field must give up it's latent kinetic energy in some fashion - like for example it gets hotter or it starts emitting spurious radiation, which would essentially make spaceships an impossible proposition.

The Honorverse might not work exactly the way that books say our universe works. I have given you the text for an event with low kinetic energy. As seen the object was ripped apart, just as you say can happen. So once the object has been reduced to a plasma, where exactly is the input kinetic energy supposed to reside? Isn't it spread though the atoms of that plasma, making everything even more energetic? The object stopped at the wall and then it and all its incoming energy was transformed into an energetic gas cloud propagating outward and radiating light and heat.

This has nothing to do with an object passing through the normal gravitational field of a star or planet, because those are not specifically designed to be destructive for the object. This is for fields created to stop the object and reduce it to plasma.

You have been writing as though the remains of the object should go off in some preferred direction; but that will only happen if momentum is in some measure preserved. Perhaps it would be if the bullet had hit at a glancing angle, but when it comes in at close to perpendicular to the wall, then no momentum survives.