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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:13 pm

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tlb wrote:PS: one thing about a black hole is that it only grudgingly gives up energy (Hawking radiation), so I expect it is incorrect to believe that it is such a useful power source.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Actually, it is. A billion-tonne black hole would have a Schwarzschild radius of 1.5 femtometres, would last for 1.5 trillion years and would give off 356 MW of power in Hawking radiation. And a one-billion tonne black hole at 1 m of distance is no more gravitationally dangerous than a one-billion tonne asteroid at 1 m of distance -- for comparison, the Dimorphos moon that the DART impacted with has an estimated mass of 5 billion tonnes.

But is that a useful power source AND a useful means to propel a space ship? Cthia said it was a near "infinite" source of power. If we knew how to create and destroy a black hole, I am assuming that 356 MW times 1.5 trillion years is the amount of energy to create this particular billion-tonne black hole. If so, we are well short of the power needed.

I will not work it out, but it does not sound as though the gravitational pull will be giving the ship very much acceleration, unless we get much closer than 1 meter.
Last edited by tlb on Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:18 pm

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tlb wrote:I can see that if the black hole is persistent, then the author needs to come up with futuristic technology just to keep the ship out of the hole and the force it applies cancels the force from the hole - so no movement. Meanwhile the energy requirements for creating and controlling a black hole could have been put to direct use to move the ship.

cthia wrote:I find black hole propulsion quite acceptable. In fact, of all the sci-fi propulsion systems in my life time, I find this theme to be among the most credible. Genius actually. It just makes good logical sense and I don't understand why tlb does not agree.

Tlb, I am not familiar with the series and as a result of that I need clarification on one point. You keep saying the black hole is in the nose of the ship. As in literally onboard the ship? If so, I will agree that that does not make any sense.

But a black hole that is instantly created off the bow of the ship at the optimum distance (Swarsczchild radius) should work perfectly.

Do you disagree that a big enough neodymium magnet which suddenly appeared off the bow of a ship would instantly accelerate the ship? In a sense there is a Swarsczchild radius of a super magnet as well. Beyond that point it is relatively safe. Thrusters should keep you stabilized. But a super attractive force like a black hole materializing at its Swarsczchild radius, perhaps, off the bow of the ship will instantly accelerate the ship. Like (the abysmally small in relation to) neodymium magnets that manage to instantly achieve accelerations of 200 mph.

At any rate, it isn't propelling the ship. It is an infinite attractive force that is quickly moving away from the ship dragging the ship after. It is a pulling force, not a pushing force. The engine is "front mounted." That morsel isn't going to make it more believable, but I wanted it to be accurate.

I agree there would be problems to solve, but an intelligence that can create black holes in the first place can handle the small fries no problem.

And I also think you are wrong about the efficiency of something like that. First off, why do you believe such a system would be a waste of energy or cost a lot of energy to create? Weber's wedges don't need a lot of energy in comparison to start the engines. And once going the wedge creates a lot more energy than its battery.

However, in a black hole energy source, the infinite gravity could be used as the mechanism of a gravity battery which fuels the entire ship. The wedge only powers itself. Advantage, "black hole horsepower."

Sorry, I overlooked this post and will try to fully answer it.

Not in order; I am not sure you understand what is meant by a "gravity battery", if you think it is a standalone source of power. As I said elsewhere it is a way to supply power during peak periods by storing power during off-peak periods; such as pumping water uphill at night and allowing it fall down to drive generators during the day. So a mechanical analog of a rechargeable battery.

I say in the nose, because I expect there is protective cover; but almost all of the mass is behind it, so the cover can be ignored.

Lets use that neodymium magnet, to begin with (the concept is identical, but we understand how to handle magnets). If it suddenly appeared in free-fall ahead of a steel ship, there would be acceleration. The center of mass of the magnet and the center of mass of the ship would both accelerate toward the combined center of mass. Assuming that we do not want the magnet to hit the ship (although that would not be as bad as a black hole hitting the ship), then either we need to have a structure to keep it at a distance or we have to destroy the magnet before impact.

Building a structure to keep the magnet at a fixed distance is the analog of a persistent black hole that is somehow restrained from touching the main body of the ship. Once we introduce that structure; then is no further movement, because the force between the magnet and the ship is exactly canceled by the force exerted by the structure to keep the magnet at a fixed distance.

Destroying the magnet and creating a new one further out is the other option. Note that to get a noticeable amount of acceleration for the ship, these magnets have to be much heavier than the ship itself. It takes an incredible amount of power to create the new one and it is not clear how much power we can recapture from the destruction of the old magnet. That inefficiency alone is enough to doom the project. The amount of energy needed to create the first neodymium magnet or black hole is enough to doom the project; as it is sufficient to propel the ship vast distances.

Consider your following statement:
At any rate, it isn't propelling the ship. It is an infinite attractive force that is quickly moving away from the ship dragging the ship after. It is a pulling force, not a pushing force. The engine is "front mounted." That morsel isn't going to make it more believable, but I wanted it to be accurate.
Why is it "quickly moving away from the ship" while "dragging the ship" along? It is because the ship is supplying energy to that "infinite attractive force" to cause it to move and stay ahead of the ship. So the ship is still supplying the motive power, just not directly to the ship.

If the ship were not supplying energy to move the attraction force, then the attractive force and the ship would come together and motion would stop. Here is another reason why this scheme makes no sense: The ship is supplying the energy to move this massive "attactor" and indirectly the ship itself; so how much more efficient would it be to use that energy to just move the ship alone?
{wanted to get this last line in}
Last edited by tlb on Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:42 pm

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tlb wrote:But is that a useful power source AND a useful means to propel a space ship? Cthia said it was a near "infinite" source of power. If we knew how to create and destroy a black hour, I am assuming that 356 MW times 1.5 trillion years is the amount of energy to create this particular billion-tonne black hole. If so, we are well short of the power needed.


No, the energy you need is E=mc² = 9 * 10^28 J. At a constant 356 MW, that takes 8 trillion years. The power that a black hole radiates in Hawking radiation is inversely proportional to the mass squared, so it becomes brighter as it radiates. So after about one trillion years, the black hole will have lost 30% of its mass and will have ramped up to 726 MW.

I will not work it out, but it does not sound as though the gravitational pull will be giving the ship very much acceleration, unless we get much closer than 1 meter.


No, it isn't. Black holes do have attraction, but the problem is how they move.

First, sorry, I need to correct one thing: the distance to feel the same gravitational attraction needs to be from the centre of a spherically-symmetric the object. Dimorphos is far from perfectly spherical, so its gravitational attraction won't be perfectly spherically symmetric either (nor is Earth's). Its largest dimension appears to be 208 m; so let's model it as a spherical object in a vacuum less than 200 m in radius (q.v., https://bigbangtheory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Joke).

That means you can't sit 1 metre from its centre without being inside of it. But you could sit 200 m from it, which would give you a gravitational acceleration of 8.34 mm/s².

You can get much closer to a BH, which is why they're dangerous. At a tenth the distance, the acceleration would be 100x. It reaches one gravity at 5.83 m, ten gravities at 1.84 m and 34 gravities at 1 m. So the second problem you're going to see with a BH drive is the gradient.

If you had that stupendous amount of energy, you can create black holes, for example by concentrating with lasers. That's the Kugelblitz I've linked to more than once. You can get more energy than your initial BH because you can feed it matter and let it transform that to energy. This is known physics, if still impractical. Black holes can convert matter to energy at about 10% efficiency, which is better than nuclear fusion and only loses to matter-antimatter annihilation, but without the need to come up with the antimatter in the first place.

But a Kugelblitz is not a drive, it's at best a power source. It doesn't get you anywhere, except closer to the black hole. If the black hole is in orbit of your planet, all you're going to do is accelerate a couple of metres and run over the black hole. You're not going to go to another star, and you're definitely not going FTL.

The trick that SciFi authors use is that they somehow "project" a blackhole of an arbitrary mass ahead of the ship, so the ship falls towards it for a fraction of a second, then the BH dissolves and gets recreated further ahead. That would make the ship keep falling, and thus accelerating. But even if we had a power source of enough capacity to create a black hole of sufficient mass that it could accelerate you without ripping you to shreds due to the gradient (spaghettification), the black hole won't dissolve / evaporate. Since black holes have no hair, once created, the black hole's evaporation will be proportional to the mass cubed.

And again, that's not FTL.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:38 pm

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A farmer has some chickens who don't lay any eggs. The farmer calls a physicist to help. The physicist does some calculation and says "I have a solution but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum!".

When I was in graduate school, the joke going around was for a physicist doing some investigation for dairy farmers. When they asked him what he had concluded, he began by saying "Assume a spherical cow".
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:26 pm

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tlb wrote:
A farmer has some chickens who don't lay any eggs. The farmer calls a physicist to help. The physicist does some calculation and says "I have a solution but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum!".

When I was in graduate school, the joke going around was for a physicist doing some investigation for dairy farmers. When they asked him what he had concluded, he began by saying "Assume a spherical cow".


Well, at least it's easy to replace spherical cows with spherical chickens by volume.
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Re: ?
Post by Daryl   » Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:09 am

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Star Wars has some classics.
In one the Millennium Falcon avoids surveillance by approaching a planet at above C in normal space, before crashing in a pine forest. How a thousand ton spaceship could hit a planet at above C, and neither were destroyed isn't explained.
Another was a cavalry charge on horned horses across the top of an orbiting space ship. The lack of oxygen and gravity weren't explained, nor was how horses at 30 kph could avoid laser clusters designed to hit space ships.

jaydub69 wrote:Agreed, star wars and Star trek are pretty awful examples of future tech making any sense. Star trek has replicators that can literally make anything at the asking. Truly a society of endless abundance and godlike powers yet everything else about it doesn't track with that capability. At least DW thinks things through a bit deeper than that.
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Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:29 am

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tlb wrote:
A farmer has some chickens who don't lay any eggs. The farmer calls a physicist to help. The physicist does some calculation and says "I have a solution but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum!".

When I was in graduate school, the joke going around was for a physicist doing some investigation for dairy farmers. When they asked him what he had concluded, he began by saying "Assume a spherical cow".


Ours was a Physicist hired by Las Vegas bookies - "Assume a Spherical horse"
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: ?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:28 am

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tlb wrote:
A farmer has some chickens who don't lay any eggs. The farmer calls a physicist to help. The physicist does some calculation and says "I have a solution but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum!".

When I was in graduate school, the joke going around was for a physicist doing some investigation for dairy farmers. When they asked him what he had concluded, he began by saying "Assume a spherical cow".


I thought it was either a point cow (or chicken), or an infinitely long cow.
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:23 am

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A farmer has some chickens who don't lay any eggs. The farmer calls a physicist to help. The physicist does some calculation and says "I have a solution but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum!".

tlb wrote:When I was in graduate school, the joke going around was for a physicist doing some investigation for dairy farmers. When they asked him what he had concluded, he began by saying "Assume a spherical cow".

Fox2! wrote:I thought it was either a point cow (or chicken), or an infinitely long cow.

Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
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Re: ?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:46 pm

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Fox2! wrote:I thought it was either a point cow (or chicken), or an infinitely long cow.


A point cow is just a spherical cow with radius zero. You just have to avoid those divisions by zero in your equations.

BTW, a point cow with a non-zero mass is a black hole.
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